The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question this afternoon is from Jayne Bryant.

Local Government Budget

Jayne Bryant AC: 1. What is the Welsh Government doing to support local government to balance their budgets in Newport West? OQ60632

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Jayne Bryant, Llywydd. In addition to specific grants, Newport council will receive funding of £303 million through the 2024-25 local government settlement. This represents an increase of 4.7 per cent on the current year.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Prif Weinidog. Last week, Michael Gove announced an additional £600 million for local authorities in England, largely aimed at the rising costs of adult and children social care. Yet, there is widespread acknowledgement that this figure is not high enough. Members in this Chamber today will recognise that local authorities across Wales are having to make very tough decisions due to the current financial situation. We've probably all spoken to councillors and constituents deeply concerned about the impact of budget pressures on services. The Welsh Local Government Association has said that it's vital for the consequential funding of Michael Gove's announcement to be delivered to Welsh councils in full so that it can be targeted at schools and delivering social care services.Prif Weinidog, what, if any, commitments have you had from the UK Government on consequentials from last week's announcement?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, there are no guarantees of any sort, and this just illustrates the unfairness of the way that funding in the United Kingdom is organised. Local government in England will now know the settlement that it has received from the UK Government. We will have to wait until the spring budget to see whether that £25 million really does arrive in Wales, or whether it's offset by other changes in our budget, which could actually mean not that we're £25 million better off, but that we're worse off than we currently believe we will be. And that would not be the first time at all that that has happened.
So, I know that my colleague the finance Minister is sympathetic to the case that local government in Wales makes—of course she would be—because, here in Wales, we have gone on investing in our local authorities, with an uplift of 9.4 per cent two years ago, an uplift of 7.9 per cent last year, and we have honoured what we said we would do in providing 3.1 per cent in the draft budget for next year.We will have to wait, Llywydd, in a way that English departments do not have to wait, to find out whether that money is genuinely available to us in Wales.

Natasha Asghar AS: First Minister, whopping council tax hikes are looming for many of my constituents in south-east Wales, and it's understandably causing a lot of people a lot of concern. Residents in Newport are facing a staggering 8.5 per cent increase. In Monmouthshire, locals are expecting a 7.5 per cent jump, and, in Caerphilly, residents are looking at a 6.9 per cent hike. As I told your finance Minister last week, residents are being forced to pay more at a time when household budgets are already stretched, whilst seeing local services decline. And I sincerely have a great deal of sympathy with local councils, because it's not necessarily their doing; it's, unfortunately, this Government's. Local authorities, which deliver essential services, have been pushed into a position because of your Government's lack of funding. And I know what you'll say, First Minister—there simply isn't enough money and the Welsh Government is cash-strapped. But, First Minister, do you agree with me that if your Government stopped wasting obscene amounts of money, such as £120 million on politicians in this place, £4.25 million on redundant farms for friends—which is now set to become the most expensive aviary in Wales—and £33 million on 20 mph speed limits, then there would be more money to spare to invest in and protect our public services?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I'm used to economic illiteracy from the Welsh Conservatives, and never disappointed, am I? I've lost count of the number of times I've tried to explain to Conservative Members here the difference between capital and revenue expenditure, but they never seem to understand even that most basic fact of Government funding. I will say this, Llywydd: this Government is not issuing an instruction to local authorities in Wales to set council tax at the maximum that they can, as we hear the Government in England is now doing to its local authorities. [Interruption.] Oh, yes, we hear that they are instructing them now, that they must maximise the draw-down from council tax to make up for the failure of funding for local authorities in England.Here in Wales, we have always prioritised. You ask any council leader in Wales and any council leader in England where they would prefer to be as far as council funding is concerned, and there's only one answer: they'd much, much rather be here.

Crohn’s Disease and Colitis

Sarah Murphy AS: 2. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that people with Crohn’s and colitis are diagnosed as quickly as possible? OQ60621

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, in Wales, we have in place a nationally agreed and standardised pathway for the investigation of inflammatory bowel disease. All health boards use this as the basis for services that respond to people presenting with symptoms of the disease.

Sarah Murphy AS: Diolch, First Minister. As we know, there are over 26,000 people in Wales living with Crohn's and colitis—lifelong, chronic conditions of the gut—with one in four diagnosed before the age of 30. There is no cure, but, with early intervention and the right treatment, the conditions can be managed. However, before the pandemic, over one in four—so , that's 26 per cent—waited more than a year for a diagnosis, with two in five attending accident and emergency departments. One young woman described her journey as a bit of a battle. She explained how many doctors turned her away because they didn't believe she was in pain, as she experienced stomach cramps throughout her GCSEs that kept getting worse. After a year, she was finally diagnosed with Crohn's, describing her diagnosis journey as frustrating and feeling helpless, as it seemed the doctors did not take it seriously until she was in agonising pain. First Minister, will the Welsh Government explore what more can be done to improve public awareness of these symptoms and also improve awareness amongst healthcare professionals? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Sarah Murphy for that. I think she makes a very important point in the final part of her supplementary question—that there is a great deal that needs to be done to help people understand the nature of their symptoms, and, of course, to help healthcare professionals who end up assessing those symptoms, because this is an area where there is genuine diagnostic uncertainty. Many of the things that turn out to be colitis or Crohn's disease look like all sorts of other conditions that aren't that at all. A general practitioner will always, as their professional training would lead them to, look first at the most obvious explanation for what they see in front of them, and that's not likely to be a Crohn's or colitis diagnosis. So, managing diagnostic uncertainty is an inevitable feature of this condition. But there is more that can be done to persuade, particularly young people—and, as Sarah Murphy said, Llywydd, these are conditions that emerge quite early on in people's lives—and that people recognise those symptoms for what they might be. And then, through the work of our national clinical lead, Dr Barney Hawthorne—recently retired and soon to be replaced—we have now in primary care in Wales consistent access to the key test that gives GPs the best understanding of whether or not this is some other condition they are seeing or whether it is someone who is suffering from Crohn's and colitis. We've put a lot of effort in recent years into advice that helps patients themselves to understand the condition and to manage the condition. And the work that is done by Crohn's and Colitis UK, in their earlier diagnosis campaign, and the other educative work they do, we know is of a genuinely excellent standard. And the way the Welsh Government intends to go on promoting better awareness, greater take-up of the help that is available, is to work closely with those third sector partners.

Russell George AC: I think it's a very important question that was asked by Sarah Murphy today, because, for those that are waiting for diagnosis or support, it's a very difficult period of their lives, and debilitating. Can you just outline, First Minister, how you are particularly supporting, or the Welsh Government is particularly supporting, those who are waiting to be diagnosed, or those who are waiting for further support or treatment, because often those waits can be long, as has been pointed out, and it's about supporting people as they go through their wait in terms of getting a diagnosis or getting further treatment?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Russell George for that. I think there are three things that could be said in answer to the point that he makes. First of all is the fact that we have a nationally agreed and standardised pathway. That is very important because it means that people, wherever they present in the system, are likely to get the same level of care. Secondly is the fact that we have made available in primary care consistent access to the key test that GPs need. And then thirdly is the investment we are making in endoscopy services, because some of the delays in diagnosis and the reason why people wait are because it relies on endoscopy, and we know that there is more that needs to be done to speed up the availability and accessibility of diagnostic services in Wales.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Twelve months ago, First Minister, a BBC programme highlighted the issues in Welsh rugby, and I think many people were taken aback and shocked at the evidence that was within that programme. Thankfully, 12 months on, we're in a far better place. And we've seen a report land in our inboxes, as Members, that has shown the action points that the Welsh Rugby Union has taken, and will have to continue to take in the coming months and years, to, obviously, get to a place where everyone will feel inclusive and enjoying the national sport. What is your take as a Government, and, in particular, your view as First Minister, on the actions that the Welsh Rugby Union have taken? And how are you holding them to account as a Government, with a significant investment in the rugby fraternity here in Wales, on the promises that they've made?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank the leader of the opposition for that question, Llywydd. He is quite right—that original report was a report that uncovered a culture within the Welsh Rugby Union of which it itself has expressed its shame, and it was a shocking report. I think the Welsh Rugby Union has moved a great deal in the last 12 months. I think the appointment of a new chair, the appointment of a new chief executive, the very direct commitment that was made on behalf of the WRU to implement the recommendations of the independent report that they had commissioned is, I think, a very good sign, but there is a long way to go. If you wanted my assessment, it's that I think a very good start has been made, but there's a lot of work that will still need to be carried out to make sure that those thoroughgoing cultural issues, which we know are deeply embedded in organisations—we've seen it in other organisations in recent times, haven't we, in the fire and rescue service, for example, in south Wales—. Those cultures take hold and they are hard to shift. I think the WRU has made a good start.
And, from my point of view, what I want to do, and what the Welsh Government wants to do, is to support those individuals within the organisation who want to take a lead in bringing about change. So, while we will, obviously, be in constant dialogue with the WRU—there's a large sum of money that has been loaned to the union and there's regular contact ministerially, and between officials and the WRU itself—while we see progress being made, I want that relationship to be a supportive one, but we will continue to assess the progress that is being made.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: First Minister, we are on the eve of the new six nations championship, and we are in a better place than where Welsh rugby was this time last year, and the new team at the top of the WRU do deserve that support and breathing space. And one thing that happened quite clearly when this news hit the headlines was a flight of sponsorship capital from the WRU and other challenges. The Welsh Government, as you alluded, highlighted the financial commitment that it's made to the game here in Wales. Last week, before the culture committee here in the Senedd, the chairman of the WRU highlighted the burden that that loan is placing on the finances of the union. Two million pounds a year is paid in servicing and capital repayments, and other unions across the United Kingdom have a far lower, as I understand it, interest rate on loans that have been made available to them. So, will the Welsh Government respond to the request from the WRU to work with them to try and restructure that loan, so that there isn't that burden placed on the grass-roots game within Wales, should the WRU have to make cutbacks in what we all want to see, which is a growing participation level in Wales and a growing and vibrant professional level, with the regions able to compete at all levels? And it will be up to the Government and the union to work to try and do that via the mechanisms that have been put in place previously. So, are you able to confirm today that the Welsh Government are engaging with the WRU and will be able to help in the restructuring of this loan so that that money can stay within the game and help it flourish here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Let me just respond to begin with, Llywydd, to a point the leader of the opposition made in introducing his second question, the importance of a breathing space for an organisation to rebuild. I agree with him there. Organisations that come under the spotlight in the way the Welsh Rugby Union did will have suffered damage as a result. And while we see progress being made, it is important to allow them the space to demonstrate that that progress can be sustained and carried forward.
As far as the loan is concerned, I think it is important just to be clear about some of the history of all of this. This loan originated during the COVID period, when the WRU took one of the UK Government's coronavirus large business interruption loans. They weren't able to sustain the repayments under that loan and came to the Welsh Government. We stepped in as the lender of last resort, but we inherited the terms on which that original loan had been made. And when you are dealing with public money, even when you are dealing with organisations that are as important in Welsh life as Welsh rugby is, you still have a duty to make sure that those are being made on properly commercial terms. And that's the basis of the loan, a loan entered into by the WRU. They were free agents in taking up that loan. And while we are always prepared and have been prepared to talk to the union about whether the loan can be restructured, whether there are other ways in which we can assist, in the end, this was a commercially determined loan, with conditions inherited from the UK coronavirus assistance, and entered into freely by the WRU itself.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: I accept that, and the WRU wouldn't retreat from it, but there is this pressure point now that is building that obviously will have to have—. I think the words that the chairman, before the committee, used were 'a plan B', yet to be determined. But invariably we'll see pulling back from features of the game that we want to see grow here, such as the expansion of grass roots and such as the ability for our professional teams, our regions, to be able to be competitive.
That transfer over to the Welsh Government loan book, as I understand it, led to a higher rate of interest being charged on the loan as opposed to staying with the COVID loan that was agreed during the COVID crisis. I understand that that was willingly entered into at the time and there were difficulties then in servicing the loan, but we have a new team now at the helm of the WRU, coming out of a difficult period. Nothing would give greater confidence to the game here in Wales than a willingness from the Welsh Government to obviously engage and support in restructuring—not writing off, because I understand that is not an option available under any legislation because of the competitive rules that exist. But the ability to engage and restructure would be a benefit to all aspects of the game here in Wales.
So, are you able to confirm, First Minister, that the Welsh Government are engaging and are looking sympathetically at this particular request from the WRU that was made via the evidence to the culture committee? And will you confirm today if the Government will be voting for our motion tomorrow that will keep six nations rugby on free-to-air tv? Because a greater ability for the public to view the game in all its glory in that pinnacle of the game in the northern hemisphere will undoubtedly bring the generation of tomorrow forward to fill the rugby fields and rugby clubs of this great country of ours.

Mark Drakeford AC: I agree with what the leader of the opposition has said about the importance of investment in the grass roots of the game, in women's rugby, in disabled rugby and in the regions as well. I'm happy to say that of course we're always willing to engage with the WRU to see if there's anything that can be done. I think the terms on which the money is provided by the Welsh Government would not be available to the Welsh Rugby Union in the commercial marketplace, so they're already at an advantage in that way, but that does not mean that we are not willing to talk to them and see if there's anything else that can be done.
Of course, I'm very happy to confirm the Welsh Government's support for free-to-air coverage of rugby here in Wales. It's what we argued for in the evidence we gave to the recent House of Commons inquiry into that matter. It would be an irony, wouldn't it, Llywydd, that people in Wales would be able to watch Wimbledon and the Derby on their televisions for free, but couldn't see Wales play rugby. That would hardly align with what we know to be the sporting preferences of people who live in Wales.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Leader of Plaid Cymru, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I want to draw the First Minister's attention to reports that the air ambulance centres in Welshpool and Caernarfon are facing closure. I believe those clinicians who fear that that will put mid and north-west Wales under a disadvantage and indeed will put lives at risk. I've co-submitted a statement of opinion on the issue earlier today.
The review of air ambulance provision is being conducted by the Emergency Ambulance Services Committee, which is a joint committee between the seven health boards. So, the Welsh Government has an ability to influence and to intervene. Is the First Minister willing to recognise the real concerns and to take the necessary steps to safeguard both sites so that the Wales air ambulance does serve all parts of this country equally?

Mark Drakeford AC: Of course I recognise the concerns of local people about the future of the service, but this happens wherever there is reorganisation. And that's what's happened here. The people who are responsible for the service have been out to consult with local people and have spoken to people the length and breadth of Wales, because what they are suggesting is that nobody loses out on the service that they currently receive, but that there's an opportunity for far more people to receive the service who can't currently receive it. That was the principle that underlined the work of the people who are responsible for the service, and they were clear about that from the very outset.

Mark Drakeford AC: The principles they set out in the beginning, Llywydd, were that the service must not be worse for anybody and the service must advantage new people. Two to three people every single day who currently don't receive this service could receive the service under the new arrangements—500 more flights to people who need it a year. I don't think that's something that we can easily turn our backs on.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'm entirely convinced that placing an additional team on the ground in the north-east would provide that additional care and that removing the helicopters from these two centres will mean a poorer service. The Emergency Medical Retrieval and Transfer Service, of course, provide the air ambulance care, but it's not the loss of the air ambulance that's the only concern about EMRTS services in north Wales at the moment. I've received confirmation from the Betsi Cadwaladr health board that the EMRTS emergency service to transfer patients from Ysbyty Gwynedd to other locations if they need critical care has already been reduced to daytime hours only. That causes real concern.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The emergency patient transfer service is what transfers patients from Ysbyty Gwynedd to Liverpool or Stoke, say, perhaps after serious trauma in an accident or if they require other specialist care. Now it has been withdrawn during the night. But medical emergencies don't discriminate based on time of day. The very essence of emergency care is that it's available to you when you need it, where you need it.
The health board says short-term mitigation measures are being put in place whilst a more permanent plan is being formulated, but the worry is—a clear worry—that this will not include a 24-hour service. Quite simply, we need this 24 hours a day and clinicians are desperately worried. Is the First Minister ready to engage on this issue so that we can try to get this service restored 24 hours a day with urgency?

Mark Drakeford AC: The air ambulance service does exist 24 hours a day and part of the reason why reform is proposed is that it can be more available across Wales. It's difficult for me to fully understand the points the leader of Plaid Cymru is making. He wants to criticise moves to make a service more widely available and then he's anxious when a service isn't available enough. I wonder whether he thinks there's any contradiction in those two positions that he's advanced so far this afternoon. The detail on the ground will be a matter for the health board itself to establish, to explain, and, of course, they will do that in dialogue with the Welsh Government and with the Minister in her very regular oversight of the way in which the board operates.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Of course, we are talking about one service, the air ambulance, that might be changed in the future. This has already been introduced in terms of the emergency patient transfer at Ysbyty Gwynedd. So, it's not one being taken away because something else is coming in instead of it. This is the loss of a service.
One element that is frustrating clinicians is their understanding that the transfer service may be being enhanced in other parts of Wales. I am certainly not, as the First Minister knows, in the business of pitching one part of Wales against the other, but I do firmly believe that the Government has to show explicitly, at all times, that it treats all parts of Wales equally.
I'm afraid that the threat to the air ambulances bases, coupled with, already, the withdrawal of emergency transfers, will only reinforce a sense of grievance felt by patients in mid or north Wales. Will the First Minister take that message on board too, in deciding how to intervene on both the air ambulance and the emergency transfer service?

Mark Drakeford AC: Of course I recognise that when change happens, you have to be sure that you try to take your local population with you on that journey. The health service has changed from the very first day on which it was inaugurated in 1948, and it will go on changing. We know that people in Wales are fiercely attached to the service that they see and they know, and that changing those things on the ground is always something that you have to do through a process of sharing information, answering people's questions, hoping to be able to address the concerns that will be raised. That's what we would expect all of our health boards to do, and I'm sure that in any discussions that the Minister will have—. And it's very good news that the Minister has been able to confirm that the new chair of the health board is now in permanent position, and I think has already demonstrated, with the new chief executive, a very real determination always to listen, always to be available to people on the ground where there are those concerns. I would certainly expect to see that continue.

Homelessness

Heledd Fychan AS: 3. How is the Welsh Government supporting individuals facing homelessness in South Wales Central? OQ60591

Mark Drakeford AC: The Welsh Government remains committed to our long-term ambition to end homelessness. This year alone, more than £210 million has been invested in homelessness prevention. This funding has been safeguarded for 2024-25, despite the challenging fiscal situation. This includes over £45 million for authorities in South Wales Central.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, First Minister. Over the past month, it has become apparent that the former Toys 'R' Us building in Cardiff Bay is being used as temporary accommodation for individuals waiting for homes. Of course, emergency shelter is needed immediately for anyone who is facing homelessness, but the conditions in which vulnerable people are being housed are very concerning to me and concerning to a number of staff who are supporting service users.
Bearing in mind these concerns regarding the health and safety of service users and staff in such facilities, I'd like to ask whether you believe that housing vulnerable individuals in such buildings is an appropriate and sustainable solution to tackling the homelessness crisis here in the capital and in Wales. What proactive steps do you, as a Government, intend to take to ensure the welfare and safety of those who are housed in temporary accommodation?

Mark Drakeford AC: As Cardiff Council itself has said, its decision to use Toys 'R' Us was a decision made under the huge pressure that the city is facing. In the run-up to Christmas, Cardiff becomes a magnet for people who come to the city, who find that they have nowhere to live, and turn to the local authority to assist them. At the same time, Cardiff, above any other part of Wales, is dealing with the consequences of the Home Office's decision to speed up decision making in the asylum system—a good thing in itself, but with many, many people being ejected from the accommodation that they previously were able to enjoy, with nowhere to go, but to the homelessness services of the local authority. Those two things came together before Christmas in a way that was incredibly difficult for the local authority to find a way to respond. It has used the Toys 'R' Us site. It says that it will have stopped using that site in April of this year because it has other more suitable accommodation coming on stream. In the meantime, it has done whatever it can to make people in that temporary and unsatisfactory set of circumstances as safe as they can be.
In terms of what the Welsh Government is doing, the period between April and October last year saw the highest number of presentations of people who are homeless than in any of the previous three years. But it also saw the highest number of people moved on from temporary accommodation to permanent accommodation here in Wales. So, while the demand is growing all the time, the efforts of the Welsh Government, with our partners in local authorities who I think have done a fantastic job in this area, mean that more people than before are still being moved on into better and long-term accommodation. We will continue to do that with the investment that our draft budget sets out, but nobody should be under any doubt that this is a system under enormous pressure, and those pressures devolved on to Cardiff in particular in those weeks leading up to Christmas.

Joel James AS: First Minister, as you may be well aware, the combined homelessness and information network, CHAIN, commissioned and funded by the Greater London Authority, is a database of information recording people seen rough-sleeping by outreach teams in London. Services that record information on CHAIN include outreach teams, accommodation projects, day centres and specialist projects, such as the commissioned No Second Night Out project. The real benefits of the network are that it is updated every day and provides a far more detailed understanding of rough-sleeping in a particular area, compared to the national count. It also captures far more detail about an individual's situation, such as how long they have been sleeping rough, and it helps agencies such as the Salvation Army, who do such an incredible job of helping homeless people, with any support needs that they have. With this in mind, First Minister, will you consider introducing a comprehensive multi-agency database, along the lines of the CHAIN system operating in London, in Wales in order to improve the planning and delivery of services for people experiencing street homelessness? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I'm aware of the CHAIN system and it does, undoubtedly, have many merits in a city the size and scale of London, but I don't believe that the difficulty faced in homelessness services in Wales is one of a lack of information. We have monthly reports from all our local authorities about the number of people who are street homeless; they are directly in touch with all of them on a very, very regular basis. What our system lacks is the funding necessary to be able to respond to people who find themselves in that situation. It's not a deficit of information, Llywydd, it is the challenge of responding to a problem that has been growing every year since the COVID pandemic.

The Co-operative Economy

Vikki Howells AC: 4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to grow the co-operative economy? OQ60628

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Vikki Howells for that. Social enterprises and community-led co-operatives are an important part of the social and economic landscape in Wales. Dedicated support to help grow the sector is available through Business Wales, Social Business Wales and the Development Bank of Wales.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, First Minister. Last week I chaired a round-table discussion of a new report on the purpose of mutual and co-operative business in society. The report highlighted, for example, that the UK mutual and co-operative economy in 2022 had combined annual revenues of just under £88 billion, or 3.5 per cent of gross domestic product. I know that the Welsh Government is already well on its way to meeting its goal of doubling the number of co-operative businesses in Wales this term. One recommendation in the report calls on policy teams across Government to consider the benefits that co-operatives and mutuals bring to the economy. So, how is Welsh Government embedding this within its economic strategy?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Vikki Howells for drawing attention to the report. It is an excellent report, if colleagues haven't had a chance to read it. What I think brings the report to life are the case studies that are contained right through it, which show the way in which co-operative and mutual ways of providing services are to be found not directly in the economy field alone, as Vikki Howells says, but can do much to assist right across the responsibilities that are exercised in this Senedd.
The case study that is from Wales in the report is of the Principality Building Society, of course itself a mutual organisation, and its partnership with the Pobl Group, looking to make sure that housing in Wales has a better chance of being able to meet the climate change obligations that we know lie there for us today and in the future. But that's not the only example, by any means, here in Wales. If you look across the range of things that are the responsibility of the Welsh Government, in social care many colleagues here will know about Solva Care, which has won many awards. There's the Friends United Together co-operative in Swansea, a co-operative people with learning disabilities. In the education field, we've had a supply teacher co-operative helping to make sure that schools get the assistance that they need when they need to use people from the supply lists. The Calon Wen organic milk co-operative in Narberth is another example of a co-operative. We've got co-operatives in the food industry, in arts, in business. I think the report makes the point powerfully, but I also think that we can demonstrate here in Wales that we are using that co-operative model, of course, in the economy department, but making sure that, right across the Welsh Government, its advantages are known and implemented.

Paul Davies AC: First Minister, we've seen a number of well-loved establishments in Pembrokeshire, such as pubs and shops, being transferred from private businesses to co-operative models of operating over the last few years. Two of the most recent are pubs such as Crymych Arms in Crymych and Tafarn y Crossin Hayscastle Cross, which also received financial support from the UK Government. I know, too, that the Welsh Government is supportive of these assets being taken over in this way for the benefit of the community. I'm sure you'll agree with me that what is vital is ensuring as many volunteers as possible can come forward to support such co-operatives and to make them hugely successful. Given the importance of volunteers, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to help promote the importance of these community assets so that as many volunteers as possible come forward to support such ventures? Can you also tell us what is the Welsh Government doing to support community organisations who have helped facilitate such ventures to become co-operatives in the first place?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Paul Davies for both of those points. It's only a few weeks ago that I was with his colleague Darren Millar in a community-run shop in his constituency, and the person we met, who is the person in charge of it, said to me very directly, 'I'm not the important person here, it's the volunteers that allow this shop to continue to offer the service that it does to this local community.' So, I absolutely understand the point that Paul Davies is making, Llywydd, and, of course, here in Wales we're lucky enough to have a robust infrastructure for volunteering. We have not only the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, which takes that Wales-wide view of supporting volunteers, but we have county voluntary councils that adapt those policies and those grant possibilities to the needs of local communities. They do that not just in supporting volunteering and encouraging people to come forward for that, but they also support community organisations themselves. So, I entirely endorse the points that the Member has made, Llywydd, and I believe that in Wales we are particularly well placed, not simply because we are a nation of volunteers—a higher percentage of people volunteer in Wales than any other part of the United Kingdom—but we also have the infrastructure in place to support them in doing so.

Luke Fletcher AS: Of course, the very idea of co-operatives isn't something that's a foreign concept to Wales. The very idea started in Wales, so it's important that we lead the way into the future. Now, back in October I raised with the First Minister the untapped potential of the sector here in Wales, because, at the end of the day, it does make up 0.6 per cent of Welsh GDP. If we want to see an increase in that figure, of course, increasing the number of co-operatives operating is important, but also, as well, looking at the sizes of those co-operatives and looking at opportunities in other industries where we might be able to grow sizeable co-operatives in the same way in which they've done in Mondragón in the Basque Country. So, my question is: how will the Welsh Government not just look at increasing the numbers of co-operatives, but also look at scaling up the size of those co-operatives as well, so that they deliver the levels of growth we want to see, but also, as well, the good-quality jobs that we know they can?

Mark Drakeford AC: The Robert Owen co-operatives were on a significant scale, weren’t they? New Lanark was a whole town devoted to the co-operative way of doing things. I was asked a question, as the Member said, earlier in the year about employee-owned businesses becoming co-operatives in Wales and I was able to say to him then that we were making very good progress towards our target on it, and, in fact, that pace has accelerated since I answered that question: 70 employee-owned businesses now in Wales, three more in the legal stage of the transition process and a further five new enquiries now being taken through the process you need to go through to become an employee-owned co-operative.
I remember being told in Mondragón, when I was there, that they hadn’t succeeded in persuading people in the two valleys either side of them to adopt the model, so we shouldn’t beat ourselves up too much in Wales if we haven’t done as much as they had managed. But there are lessons from other parts of the world, and from those large-scale co-operatives, because we do now have some genuinely large-scale employee-owned businesses here in Wales, and our aim always is to assist businesses on that journey, so that they stay rooted here in Wales and use their capacity for growth to go on making that contribution to the wider Welsh economy.

Permitted Development Rights

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 5. Will the First Minister make a statement on permitted development rights in Wales? OQ60592

Mark Drakeford AC: Permitted development rights enable development with limited planning impacts to proceed without needing a planning application. These are kept under review in consultation with planning authorities, businesses and other organisations with an interest in the planning system.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch. In response to a similar question on 9 January, Dawn Bowden MS, Deputy Minister for tourism, told this Parliament
'The Welsh Government is committed to supporting a vibrant visitor economy all year round throughout Wales'.
Now, the facts paint a different picture. There's now a growing perception that, in Wales, this Welsh Government supported by Plaid are on an anti-tourism agenda. And you’ve got to realise this is a £6.2 billion industry, so let’s look at what’s been introduced as a result of this co-operation agreement: a 182-day rule for self-catering accommodation, registration scheme for holiday lets, licensing scheme for hospitality accommodation, tourism tax, slashing the 75 per cent—[Interruption.] I’m well within my time.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Yes, you're within your time. [Interruption.] You're within your time, Janet Finch-Saunders; I'm not sure whether you're within your topic at the moment.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I am.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: This question is about permitted development rights.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Which part of that didn't you understand, of what I was saying?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: This is about permitted development rights and the points I'm making.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Okay. Get to the point, then, please, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Right. So, further to the consultation on extending development rights for temporary campsites, and in order to help the sector, will you now increase the number of days from 28 to 60 for these businesses? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I did eventually understand the point the Member was making. The Minister has a range of topics that she will consider in the coming 12 months in relation to permitted development rights. That will include air-source heat pumps, electric charging, the bottle-return scheme—of which the Member was such a strong supporter—and caravan parks, so it is on the list for the Minister to consider this year. When she does, she will inevitably be weighing up the balance of rights here. I understand the points that the Member has made and the sector has made about if it had more days in which it was able to open caravan parks without planning permission, that would be of advantage to some people in the industry. But we also know that there have been complaints in the past of those pop-up caravan sites creating traffic that is unregulated, that there is smoke that affects people who live nearby, there is noise from people—who are, after all, coming on holiday to enjoy themselves, and they’re very close sometimes to where people live their lives. So, what the Minister will be doing will be to be weighing up those different considerations. If it is possible to extend the number of days that caravan parks can pop up without planning permission, then there will have to be safeguards for people who live nearby as well.

Royal Mail

Carolyn Thomas AS: 6. What consideration has the First Minister given to Ofcom's announcement that Royal Mail could reduce letter deliveries to three days a week? OQ60613

Mark Drakeford AC: The challenges faced by Royal Mail are not best resolved by a service confined to only three days a week. The Deputy Minister for Social Partnership will meet Ofcom next week to make it clear that any changes to postal services must take into account Welsh needs and any impacts on vulnerable people.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Diolch. Since Royal Mail was privatised, it has been asset-stripped. The universal one-price letter was never profitable on its own, it was part of a package of services. And recently, workers have been told to deliver the more lucrative parcels and leave letters behind, as rounds have become too big to deliver for the workforce that is left; all while chief executives have had massive pay awards and shareholders have profited. Has the Welsh Government considered the impact reduced letter delivery will have on health appointments and those that are digitally excluded?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, Carolyn Thomas makes a very important point at the end of her supplementary question. I said in my original answer that one of the two key points that the Deputy Minister will be conveying next week are general Welsh needs—. And a universal postal service inevitably means that you get the same service if you are hard to provide that service to, if you live remotely and it's inevitably more expensive, as if you live in a densely-populated inner city area, where it's much easier to provide that service; that's the nature of an universal service and we will be making that point. But we'll also be making points on behalf of those vulnerable individuals in our community. We know our health services are used far more by people later on in life than people who are earlier on. We know that those people are, on the whole, less likely to use digital means of communication. It's fantastic that the health service uses text messaging and other things to remind people of appointments, but, if you don't operate in that world, you rely on the letter coming through the door, and if you're only getting a letter on three days of the week the chances are far too high that someone will not get an appointment or not know about their appointment in good time to be able to make the necessary arrangements to be able to keep that appointment. Those are really important points for the most vulnerable people in our society and the Minister will be conveying that point very directly to the regulator.

Mark Isherwood AC: The chief executive of Ofcom made the point that we're sending half as many letters as we did in 2011 and receiving many more parcels, but the universal service obligation hasn't changed since then. Ofcom also noted that many other European countries, for the same reasons, have reduced frequency of delivery or extended delivery times for letters, including Sweden, Belgium, Norway and Denmark, in their document. However, last Wednesday, the Prime Minister pledged to maintain Royal Mail's obligation to deliver letters six days a week. Given that Ofcom will now be consulting on its proposals before providing an update in the summer and your indication that you will be engaging with Ofcom, including a meeting next week, what, if any, proposals do you have to square that circle, where consumer demand has changed drastically, but, at the same time, the public want that universal six-day service?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I don't disagree that there is a dilemma to be solved there, with the number of letters falling and the nature of the business changing. It is why Ofcom has itself come forward with its proposals. We will engage with those proposals, of course; as I said, the Minister is meeting on 9 February with Ofcom. What we are concerned with is that, in any resolution of that dilemma, Welsh interests are not neglected and that vulnerable people are protected, and I don't imagine for a moment that the Member would dissent from either of those principles.

Enhancing NHS Services in Islwyn

Rhianon Passmore AC: 7. What action is the Welsh Government taking to enhance NHS services in Islwyn? OQ60633

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, we constantly look to improve services for the Member's constituency, as demonstrated last week, when Aneurin Bevan University Health Board opened a new £19 million health and well-being centre. Islwyn residents will also benefit from a £14 million investment in the emergency department at the Grange University Hospital, as well as a new breast care unit opening next month.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, First Minister. The Welsh Government's and indeed this Senedd Cymru Welsh Parliament's ability to deliver and oversee vital public services is predicated on the finances it receives from the UK Tory Government in Westminster. The Welsh health Minister has informed the Senedd that the Welsh Government has escalated intervention at the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board. This is welcome oversight in an incredibly challenging environment. I also welcome the news of the announcement, as the First Minister said, that Welsh Government has made an additional £14 million available to expand and reconfigure parts of the Grange University Hospital. The Grange has been an important new facility for the people of Gwent as healthcare demands have soared, and it is vital that the Grange improves, as it has become a key centre of healthcare in Gwent. First Minister, what principles and actions guide the Welsh Government in protecting and enhancing the national health service in Gwent, whilst public services have been so roughly damaged by the UK Tory Government now entering its final death spiral?

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Before I ask the First Minister to answer, can I just check that the First Minister has understood the question, because the broadband connection wasn't sufficiently good? If you've understood the question, you can answer. But if I can just say to Rhianon Passmore, if you are to take part later on in the session at all, you will need to improve the broadband connection you're currently working on. First Minister.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, can I thank other Members for the relative silence in which the question was put? It wasn't easy to follow, but I think I was able to understand the key gist of what Rhianon Passmore said.
She asked me at the end what principles guide the Welsh Government's actions in relation to the health service and, well, those are our continuing commitment to the founding principles of the health service. The new centre that I mentioned in my answer, the £19 million health and well-being centre, was in Tredegar, of course, and no more fitting place to demonstrate investment in a twenty-first century health service than in the place where the health service itself was born. So, we continue to be committed to a service that is comprehensive, universal, free at the point of use, and where access is based not on the amount of money you have in your pocket or the influence that you are able to bear, but on your clinical need. That's what guides the investments that are made by the Welsh Government.
I agree with the point that the Member made about the need for improvement at the Grange University Hospital in its emergency department, given the part it now plays in that ecology of health services in the Gwent area, but that's why the Minister has provided that additional investment. It will more than double the capacity at that emergency department and make sure that it goes on providing the service on which Rhianon Passmore's constituents rely.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Finally, question 8. Jack Sargeant.

Excessive Profits in the Economy

Jack Sargeant AC: 8. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of how excessive profits in some sectors of the economy are impacting Welsh residents? OQ60618

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, there is no doubt that profiteering has added to inflationary pressure on Welsh household budgets. To cite just one example, the Competition and Markets Authority concluded in November that makers of some popular food brands had raised their prices more than their costs during the cost-of-living crisis.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful to the First Minister for his answer. You're right, First Minister; the CMA have done their own piece of work, but so have—. Research has been done by Unite the Union, Llywydd, and I refer Members to my declaration of interests. Unite found that, in many industries, excess profits were pushing up prices—[Interruption.] Presiding Officer, the Conservatives can shout all they want, but they'll want to listen to the reality of what many of my residents are facing and many of theirs are facing in their own communities: excess profits pushing up prices. The UK Conservative Government, Presiding Officer, were forced to act in a tokenistic way in the energy sector. However, this hasn't been the case anywhere else, and it's not been anywhere near good enough. In other sectors, such as car insurance, it's affecting their constituents on a daily basis. In other areas, such as food, it's affecting their constituents on a daily basis. These behaviours have gone unchecked. First Minister, last winter we saw some companies making excessive profits gleefully switching vulnerable customers to prepayment meters at the same time. These excessive profits were inflammatory, they were damaging to growth, and they were damaging to my constituents and the Welsh population. Can I ask you, First Minister, therefore: what is your assessment of what needs to happen to get the Government in Westminster to take this problem seriously?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Jack Sargeant for that. I too am proud to declare my membership of Unite the Union and to endorse the work that it's done in this area. When I saw the question at the weekend, Llywydd, I was reminded of a famous saying by that great socialist and political thinker, R.H. Tawney. I think it's 100 years ago almost to now when he said,
'what thoughtful rich people call the problem of poverty, thoughtful poor people call with equal justice a problem of riches'.
And that's at the heart of the point that Jack Sargeant has made, isn't it? We live in this deeply unequal society. We talk an awful lot here in this Chamber about poverty. We talk a little bit less than maybe we should about the problem of riches and the need to make sure that the assets that are available to us as citizens of the United Kingdom are more fairly distributed between us. Despite everything that has been done, Llywydd, to improve the position of prepayment meter customers, Citizens Advice was reporting last week that 2 million people who depend on prepayment meters will find themselves involuntarily without a supply. They will have disconnected themselves from lifeline supplies because they're simply not able to afford to feed them. That despite the astonishing profits that have been made by those energy companies during this cost-of-living crisis.
And, Llywydd, it's not only there. Jack Sargeant has drawn attention to the food industry, to the insurance industry and energy. But we had a powerful contribution on the floor of the Senedd last week from Jane Dodds talking about the elimination of profit from services for looked-after children, and there the Competition and Markets Authority concluded that, in that industry, where a reasonable return on investment would be 6 per cent, the industry was taking twice that as a return in excessive profits. The Competition and Markets Authority itself said that the UK had sleepwalked into a dysfunctional market where excessive profit taking was at the expense of those vulnerable children who depended upon it. In the way that Jack Sargeant has said this afternoon, Llywydd, we need a Government prepared to level that playing field for the benefit of citizens in Wales and across the United Kingdom.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item will be the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make the statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are two changes to this week's Plenary business. Tomorrow's committee debate will be on the challenges facing the creative industry workforce in Wales, which was postponed from last week. Therefore, the debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee's annual report on international relations 2022-23 has been postponed until 28 February. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Darren Millar AC: Can I call for two statements today, please, Trefnydd, the first on the future of our high streets in Wales? Many town centres have been struggling in recent years. We know that the competition presented by online retailers and out-of-town developments, with their free parking opportunities, has made it tough doing business, sometimes, in our town centres. And, of course, the latest impact of the reduction in business rate relief is causing many businesses in my constituency to get in touch to say that that could be make or break for them. I do think that we need to ensure that there's more discussion on the future of our town centres, how we can make sure that they are vibrant in the future, and I wonder whether we could have a statement so that we can have an engagement and a discussion on this on a cross-party basis to see what might be done to protect them.
Secondly, can I call for a statement on whether Transport for Wales represents value for money for Welsh taxpayers? We know that £125 million was recently awarded to Transport for Wales, in spite of there apparently being no business case for that ever having been published, and in spite of it not having been part of the Welsh Government's budget arrangements for last year. It's been brought to my attention by a constituent that Transport for Wales recently spent £5,500—I know it's a small sum in relative terms—wrapping a train in a 'Made in Wales' advertising slogan and sign. Now, clearly, that is unnecessary discretionary expenditure at taxpayers' expense, and I wonder what else is going on that's being wastefully spent by Transport for Wales without there being a proper business case around it.
So, I would appreciate a statement from the Minister on Transport for Wales, on why these significant sums are being given to that organisation when it seems to be able to spend frivolously on that sort of advertising.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I will agree to a statement on your first question, but not to your second.

Heledd Fychan AS: Trefnydd, I'd like to request a statement following an investigative piece published at the weekend byThe Sunday Times regarding cash for courses, which exposed that Cardiff University was one of the universities named that were offering to recruit foreign students on far lower grades than we would expect from students here in Wales, meaning that students are missing out, having to have excessively high grades of A*s and so on to get onto some courses, which are absolutely vital in terms of the Welsh economy, of course, and missing out because of the situation that many of our universities are facing in terms of their financial difficulties.
I think we need clarity on this, and I'd appreciate a statement from the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to understand what discussions he may have with Cardiff University to ensure that Welsh students aren't missing out, and also, that we're not exploiting international students unfairly.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, obviously, we welcome foreign students to our Welsh universities, but I think we do have to be very careful. I know the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language is currently speaking to vice-chancellors in general around foreign students, and I'm sure he'll be happy to update us at the appropriate time.

James Evans AS: Trefnydd, I'd like to ask for a statement, please, from the Minister for Economy about the £70 million clawback that the Welsh Government had from the Superfast Cymru broadband scheme. I know the Welsh Government is going through a procurement exercise on how they could supplement the Welsh Government scheme with regard to broadband, but it would be useful if we could have an update in the Chamber, please, on this procurement exercise, because people in my constituency want some assurances that that scheme is going to enable our harder-to-reach properties to have equitable access to fast broadband in our rural communities.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I will certainly ask the appropriate Minister to update via a written statement.

Cefin Campbell AS: Well, very conveniently, I want to follow the same track and ask for a statement from the Minister for Economy, because I've raised concerns in this Chamber previously about areas of rural Carmarthenshire, and rural areas in Ceredigion also, that have been disappointed time and time again by companies that have pledged to implement the voucher schemes, but have let those areas down. And I have to declare an interest: I live in one of those areas, and I've been one of those people who've expressed an interest. The Broadway company went bust and let people down. And then they were bought by a company called Voneus, and, last week, we heard that they weren't going to commit to follow the voucher scheme. So, having spoken to Openreach originally, then Broadway, and then Voneus, we are, in these areas, still lacking the kind of broadband service that we deserve.
So, can I ask—I know that many elements of this sit with the UK Government—what is the Welsh Government intending to do to provide services in these notspots in rural areas?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, what I will do is ask the Minister to encompass your issues as well in the written statement. It's really important that our rural communities have access to broadband in the way that urban areas do too, for business and, obviously, for personal use as well. So, I will make sure that's encompassed in that statement.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I would like to request a statement from the health Minister, please. Last week, it was announced that the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board supported the plan for Nevill Hall Hospital in Abergavenny in my region to be closed every night of the week. It has previously operated 24-hours a day, seven days a week, and my constituents and I are deeply concerned at the decision to close the minor injuries unit every night. This is the wrong decision for my constituents and it is not putting patient need first. The decision is not supported by local residents or politicians alike. It will mean people in my region having to travel a significant number of miles to receive treatment, and will only add to put further pressure on the Grange, at a time when it's already under tremendous pressure.
So, I'd like the Minister to release a statement to update the Senedd on what discussions have taken place with the health board, what is being done to ensure that this crucial service remains available for my constituents to get help when they need it, and whether the Minister believes these changes are sufficient. My constituents also obviously need to know what the alternatives are for them, what transport will be available to them. I'm sure the Minister will agree with me that all my constituents need to be aware of this significant change in service. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, this isn't a matter for the Minister for Health and Social Services; this is obviously an operational matter from within Aneurin Bevan health board. My understanding is there was only one patient a night, on average, attending. And again, it's a matter for the health board to make sure that the information about where they should attend in the case of an emergency, that the general population that they serve know that.

Delyth Jewell AC: Well, actually, like Laura, I'd like to have an oral statement, please, from the health Minister about the provision of minor injury units in the region. We've seen, as has been outlined already, the closure, overnight, of the minor injuries unit at Nevill Hall Hospital in Abergavenny. Many patients are concerned about where they'd go late at night if something goes wrong, and over 5,000 people have signed a petition in support of that facility. Limited hours are also going to be made permanent at Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr in Ystrad Mynach. I would appreciate if a statement could address those local concerns, whether legislation could be made possible to ensure that there is provision 24 hours a day offered to people, particularly those who find it difficult to get to A&E, especially when A&E services have become so centralised across the whole region, because people feel isolated and worried about where to get help.
Now, on a related matter to that, I've been contacted by a constituent who is expressing concern about the level of pressure being put on staff because of workloads, I think, in Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr, actually in the minor injuries unit—staff, who, by the way, they commended for their dedication, but there is a worry that they might be being overworked. I have contacted the health board. They told me that the staffing levels at the unit conform to Government guidelines. They also admitted that those staffing levels were under review. So, in that same statement, please, could the health Minister commit to a review of the current guidelines, to ensure that staff and patients are getting the support they need, please? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I don't think I have anything more to add, really, to my answer to Laura Anne Jones. This is not a matter for the Minister for Health and Social Services; this is a matter for Aneurin Bevan, so you've done absolutely the right thing writing to them. But I do think it is important that the health board make the population that they serve aware of the changes. I appreciate no-one likes change, but it is important that people know where to go to access the correct health service, at the correct time.

Paul Davies AC: Trefnydd, can I please request two statements? Can I request the first from the health Minister, on the delivery of emergency services and ambulance waiting times in Wales? I've been made aware of a constituent whose relative had to wait 26 hours for an ambulance after an initial first responder arrived. Another constituent's family have been in touch to tell me of their relative who waited over an hour and a half for an ambulance after having a heart attack on Christmas Eve. Unfortunately, that person passed away at the age of 40, leaving two small children. I'm sure you'll agree with me that that is absolutely appalling, and my heart goes out to the family. Minister, given these unacceptable cases, it's vital that some time is now made available, I think, to discuss emergency health services, and ambulance waiting times in particular, so that Members and the public can understand what the Welsh Government is doing to improve services and ensure lessons are being learnt.
And secondly, Llywydd, can I request a statement from the Welsh Government regarding footpath connectivity? I've received representations from a constituent who has expressed concern at the lack of connectivity of footpaths, and calls for them to be better linked up across the country. I appreciate that this involves buy-in from landowners, from local authorities, from national parks, and indeed other stakeholders, but I'd be grateful if a statement—written or oral—could be provided, outlining the Welsh Government's position on this particular issue.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. In relation to your first request, clearly, the two situations you outlined are unacceptable, and I too send my sympathies to the family involved in the second example that you gave. If we look at our ambulance service, and certainly if we compare it to this time last year, we have seen some improvements, despite the very highest demand that we've had for red calls on record last month. The median response time for immediately life threatening red calls was just over eight minutes, and 80 per cent of red calls received a response within 15 minutes. Again, emergency departments, we know that the system is very much under pressure, but people are still receiving a very good standard of care within our emergency departments across Wales, and this is absolutely a testament to the hard work of our health staff.
In relation to your second point, I think it might be better if you write directly to the Minister for Climate Change around footpaths, and she'll be able to answer your specific concerns directly.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Can I ask for two statements, if I may? Could I have a statement from yourself as rural affairs Minister on the economic impact assessment of the sustainable farming scheme, which has been the focus of some coverage this week, outlining the potential loss of 5,500 jobs and £200 million-worth of losses to farm incomes? I know you've said that the assessment is based on a previous iteration of the sustainable farming scheme, but, of course, fundamentally, not that much has changed, really. So, a statement, I think, explaining the relevance of the impact assessment to the current proposals would be useful, on how, maybe, the impact assessment has led to change in what you're now proposing and how you will, therefore, secure a just transition that avoids thousands of job losses and hundreds of millions of pounds' worth of farm income losses as well. And maybe you could also tell us when an updated impact assessment will be provided to inform the current consultation that's ongoing around the SFS.
Could I have a statement from the Deputy Minister for culture, if I might ask for one? There are a number of budget cuts that are going to impact organisations directly funded from her portfolio, which will lead to jobs being lost. Now, I know some of these bodies are already undertaking redundancy processes. So, I would want a statement from the Deputy Minister that reassures us that those processes are being undertaken in an appropriate manner, that they treat everyone fairly, and that they allow sufficient time for people who have to make important decisions about their future employment—that they're given the support and the information they need to make those informed decisions—and that they happen with a degree of consistency across the organisations and the sector, because, clearly, there will be significant implications. And, I think, those reassurances would be welcomed by many people.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Regarding the economic impact assessments on the economic analysis ahead of the consultation for the sustainable farming scheme, I don't think I will be doing an oral statement around that. I've made it very clear that this is very old data, and the reason I shared it in the way I did was to be open and transparent about it, because I thought it was really important, ahead of the current consultation regarding the sustainable farming scheme, that that data was available. I've made it very clear that there will be a new economic analysis, and that will be done after the consultation closes, which I think is on 9 March, ahead of the final decisions being taken on the SFS this summer.
Regarding the Deputy Minister for culture and her budget for next year, as you know, we're currently going through draft budget scrutiny. I fully understand the concerns that you have, and the Deputy Minister is making sure that she talks to the organisations that you refer to as the process has gone along. Once the budget is set, I think those conversations will obviously continue.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: And, finally, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Diolch, Llywydd. Well, Trefnydd, can I ask for two statements, please? Can I ask for a statement from the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership on the impact of the Post Office's Horizon scandal on post offices in Wales? The post office in Nefyn has recently closed, and, unfortunately they're struggling to find someone to take on the contract. It closed, partly, because of a loss of confidence in the IT systems, and I'm led to believe that other communities are experiencing similar responses too. The post office provides an essential service for many people and we need to have the assurance that these services will be maintained. So, can I ask for a statement, please, on that?
Secondly, I'd like to ask for a statement from the Minister for Social Justice on actions taken by this Government to tackle sexual assault and rape. Last week, I met with RASASC, the Rape and Sexual Abuse Support Centre North Wales, in Bangor. I was frightened hearing some of the statistics and understanding that a third of women who were asked at the freshers' fair last year knew someone who had been raped or sexually assaulted. In fact, north Wales has the highest rate of sexual violence anywhere in the UK outside of London, and we're seeing increasing numbers of referrals, with a 30 per cent year on year increase this year, especially amongst children. The data is staggering, and I'm really concerned about the welfare of women and children. So, I'd like a statement on what action the Government is taking to this effect. Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Both Ministers have agreed to do written statements. Diolch.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Trefnydd, for those responses.

3. Statement by the First Minister: The final report of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 3 is next, which is a statement by the First Minister on the final report of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. I call on the First Minister.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, publication of the final report of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, 10 days ago, was a major event in the short history of Welsh devolution. My first job this afternoon is to pay tribute to the 11 members of the commission, and particularly its co- chairs, former Archbishop of Wales and Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, and the distinguished Welsh academic, Professor Laura McAllister. Behind the commission sat an active and influential expert group and a secretariat who did much to support the production of the lucid and persuasive final document.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I should also thank those senior members of all the parties represented in this Senedd for their help in identifying those commissioners who contributed the political perspectives that shape the constitutional debate of our nation.It is a remarkable tribute to the skills of the co-chairs that, faced with a commission full of individuals of robust and strongly held views, the final report is, to quote Dr Williams and Professor McAllister, the product of
'reasoned, inclusive debate based on data and evidence',
leading to unanimous conclusions. That a cross-party commission should come to so many shared conclusions lends a real extra weight and significance to the final report, and I thank once again all those who helped to make that happen.
Now, Llywydd, the genesis of the commission is to be found in Welsh Labour’s manifesto of 2021, when we promised that we would
'Work for a new and successful United Kingdom, based on a far-reaching federalism. We want to foster a national, civic conversation in Wales about our future. We will establish an independent, standing commission to consider the constitutional future of Wales.'
That is what we said in our manifesto. The final remit of that commission was set out in the programme for government and refined once again in the co-operation agreement between this Welsh Labour Government and Plaid Cymru.
The circumstances in which the notion of a commission was formed reflected the many stresses and strains that have been felt in the constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom. The Brexit vote referendum in both Scotland and Northern Ireland had returned majorities in favour of remaining in the European Union, while Wales and England voted to leave. The Scottish National Party had won 56 of the 59 parliamentary seats in the 2015 general election, by which time it had already been in government in Holyrood for nearly a decade. In December 2019, the Conservative Party was able to form the first clear majority Government at Westminster since 1992, and the first since devolution. The Prime Minister of the time, Boris Johnson, told his supporters that he regarded devolution as the greatest mistake of the New Labour Government and proceeded to deal with legislatures in Belfast, Cardiff and Edinburgh on that basis. The era of muscular unionism, as it was called in Downing Street, added new tensions and further widened fissures in an already fragile United Kingdom.
Here in Wales, in that 2021 Senedd election, it was clear that voters would have the opportunity, if they so chose, to support candidates dedicated to reversing devolution altogether—the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party—and candidates dedicated to leaving the United Kingdom.
Now, Llywydd, there are those who believe that the constitutional turbulence of that period has come to an end, that the undoubted travails of the Scottish National Party mean that conventional unionism has triumphed and that rule from London has been reasserted. That, I believe, is a conclusion that is both foolish and dangerous. The constitutional challenges facing the United Kingdom, especially for those of us who believe in the continuation of the United Kingdom, are as real today as when the commission was established. By this time next year, there may be a Sinn Féin first minister in Northern Ireland—and I welcome the developments overnight to restore an Executive in Northern Ireland—and there may be a Sinn Féin government in the Irish Republic. Anybody who thinks the constitutional turbulence is over is simply indulging in wishful thinking.
The commission, by contrast, was established to provide thinking of a very different calibre, and it has done just that. The interim report decisively set out the 10 greatest challenges facing devolution: the instability of the devolution settlement, the fragility of inter-governmental relations, problems with the system of financing devolved nations, the absence of leadership on the union, and so on. Now the final report sets out some answers to these dilemmas. The commission advances a set of measures that can entrench and enhance the current settlement, making it less vulnerable to attacks from a hostile administration in Westminster. And, as well as deepening the roots of devolution in that way, the report explores the case for widening the responsibilities of this Senedd, and does so in six different fields: broadcasting, employment, energy, justice, transport and welfare. As a background to these specific proposals, the commission assesses the three broad constitutional futures available to those who share a progressive approach to strengthening Welsh democracy: an enhanced and protected version of the current settlement, a federal future for the United Kingdom, and an independent Wales.
Now, Llywydd, it was never the intention that the commission should come to a conclusion that instructed Welsh citizens on the model to be preferred from those it explored. Rather, the report offers each of us a serious analysis of the pros and cons of each possibility, allowing us to come to a better informed, evidence-rich conclusion of our own, both as individuals and as political parties. And, Llywydd, all of this is summed up in 10 recommendations. How often have we seen in this Senedd reports bristling with recommendations guaranteed to sink under their own weight? By focusing on a small number of key proposals, the commission has, I believe, gone a long way to ensuring that its work will go on being powerfully influential in the debates and the discussions that will flow from it.
One final point, Llywydd, if I may: in my first conversation with Dr Williams, asking if he would be prepared to consider help leading the commission, he told me that he would be willing to do so, but only if the work of the commission could be conducted in a way that involved as many as possible of those people who make Wales the country it is today. The result is that the authority of the report comes not simply from the intellectual rigour of its evidence and conclusions, but from the thousands of our fellow citizens who have been part of its conversation. Indeed, the very first of the final 10 recommendations urges both the Welsh Government and the Senedd to strengthen our own capacity for democratic innovation and community engagement in the work that we do.

Mark Drakeford AC: If colleagues are only able to read one chapter of the report, beyond its summary and recommendations, then let me commend to you chapter 3, 'strengthening democracy in Wales'. For anyone who practises on the democratic front line, here are ideas on which we might all draw upon in our constituencies, here in the Senedd and in the Welsh Government. The way that our country is organised, the future of the United Kingdom and of Wales, and the amplified voice of citizens in making such determinations, all of that is to be found in the commission’s final report, and it deserves to be taken seriously by all. Thank you very much, Llywydd.

Andrew R.T. Davies AC: Thank you, First Minister, for your statement this afternoon. As someone who was involved heavily with the Silk commission and the setting up of the Silk commission, I would've preferred, if a commission was to be established, it be established on the remit that the Silk commission operated. I can remember the many times that we sat in Cathays Park—the then First Minister, the leaders of the other political parties and me—and discussed and worked through a programme and, ultimately, what would emerge as legislation. And I can remember leaving this place after First Minister's questions one day and heading up to Westminster to sit in the leader of the house's office, with the other leaders, and working through how devolution could move forward and, ultimately, transfer powers that were transferred via two successful Government of Wales Acts in the House of Commons. That wasn't the model that was chosen by the Welsh Government, and when the Counsel General made contact with me about putting forward Conservative representation, it was made quite clear to me that those individuals were not party spokespeople on that commission. I respect that, but, in the report, it does seem to try and indicate that the views expressed by the Conservative nominee on the commission is the view of the Conservative Party. That is not the case. We put through three names for consideration and the commission determined who that person would be to be sitting as the commissioner. One was a barrister, the one had experience in local government at cabinet level, and the other had experience at a Westminster level in the special adviser role that she fulfilled. That was what the Government chose as the model they wished to put on as commissioners. And I respect that, but I do believe that the Silk commission would've been a better way to look at, if there was to have been a discussion and a conversation, how devolution could have been enhanced and developed and moved forward.
From my personal perspective, I believe that the settlement, with some notable exceptions, such as the budget, for example, that you alluded to in First Minister's questions, and the financial arrangements that you have with the Treasury, do need change, but the overall settlement that we have, given the two legislative Acts that were passed by Westminster, are robust, are empowering and do turbocharge this Welsh Parliament in meeting the expectations of the people of Wales.
I would much prefer, today, to actually be responding to a statement from the First Minister on him putting the Government resource into a Wales-wide COVID inquiry, but I fully understand this was a manifesto commitment, maybe looking at, obviously, a deal with Plaid Cymru, at the end of the 2021 election, when maybe a coalition had to be put in place. Now, that would be the prerogative of the Government, because, obviously, you would've won that election—I accept that. And, obviously, that discussion could have gone on with, obviously, Plaid Cymru and you. But I think what most people's priorities here in Wales are is looking at why the Welsh Government did or did not do things in the COVID era, and that's why we would prefer to see a Wales-wide COVID inquiry. It is important to recognise, as well, how quickly colleagues of the First Minister at the other end of the M4 slapped down the proposals within this commission. I quote from Jo Stevens's point of view here, where she says,
'But we will not be looking at devolution of policing and justice.'
That's pretty clear. I had sympathy with the leader of Plaid Cymru last Tuesday—not that he'd be looking for sympathy from the leader of the Conservatives—when he tried to explore this with you in First Minister's questions. That's pretty clear, that is, that statement:
'But we will not be looking at devolution of policing and justice.'
This is a major tenet of this piece of work that has been undertaken by the commission on behalf of the Welsh Government in looking at further powers of devolution. And so, I would ask the First Minister how does he see reconciling the differences between his colleagues at Westminster and, obviously, here in the bay. And it is interesting to note that there's only one of the two leadership contenders in the Chamber for this important constitutional statement, and the one who's missing has the most endorsements from MPs at the other end of the M4—quite telling to say the least.
I would also ask of the First Minister why the Welsh Government doesn't look at the more empowering role it could play in reforming public services here in Wales. Devolution isn't just about devolving power from London to Cardiff; it's actually devolving power out of Cardiff to the regions of Wales. When we have a local government settlement that is still pre devolution, and each time the Government benches come forward with a proposal it's found it too hard to make any changes, it hasn't chosen to do anything on that, why doesn't the Welsh Government look at the settlement that it's got and use the levers that it's got in local government, in the health service, and the structures that could be empowered by greater devolution away from Cardiff to the regions of Wales? That would be something on these benches we would welcome with open arms.
I'll close on this remark, if I may. The First Minister finished his statement by addressing the needs of empowering the people of Wales, and the conversation he had with Dr Rowan Williams. He agreed only to take part in the commission if the commission's recommendations about empowering people's voices was a central theme of the Welsh Government and indeed the Senedd. We have just had the largest petition come before the Senedd of nearly 0.5 million voices signing up to a petition to get rid of a policy that his Government has brought forward. When you talk about listening to people, that is one hell of a loud cry from the people of Wales to change direction and change course. So, rather than just put those words in a statement that you have read out today, why don't you put that into action and get rid of the blanket 20 mph?

Mark Drakeford AC: I share the leader of the opposition's positive view of the Silk commission. I think for the job that it was asked to do, it was the right vehicle to do it. It's just that this was a very different job and needed a very different vehicle. To take his final point next, what Dr Rowan Williams said to me was that if he were to co-chair a commission, he wanted the confidence of knowing that the commission would be able to involve as many people as possible in its debates as could be managed. He didn't want a commission in which people went from here to a closed room in Cathays Park to decide what the outcome would be. It's a very different model because the purpose was very different.
I was very grateful to the leader of the opposition for putting names of people to sit on the commission, not because they represented their party, but because they would bring that perspective to the debates of the commission. And if I could say so, I think the contribution of Lauren McEvatt, the person who was from that Conservative perspective, had a real impact on the commission. She was a very active, very thoughtful contributor. I was in London last week at the Institute for Government; she was in the audience there, and she made some very important points there too. So, I was very grateful for the fact that she was there to contribute those views, not because she was speaking for the Conservative Party, but because she could make sure that the traditions, the ways of thinking, the approach that would be taken by that party would be heard around that table.
I don't agree, of course, with the leader of the opposition that the current settlement is robust. How could anybody come to that conclusion following the ways in which the Sewel convention has been so consistently disrespected by Governments in Westminster since 2019? It's a convention that was never broken by Labour Governments or Conservative Governments until 2019, and since that time, it is broken absolutely time after time after time. The Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill, trade aspects of the Procurement Bill, the Illegal Migration Bill, the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill, the Energy Bill—all of these were debated on the floor of the Senedd. Permission to legislate in devolved areas was denied, and in every single case that Government went ahead and legislated in the teeth of the refusal of this Senedd to give them permission to do so. How can anybody conclude that the settlement is robust when it turns out to be as vulnerable as that?
On policing and justice, I made my answers last week. I made clear the policy of this Government and the party here in Wales. The Gordon Brown report commissioned by Keir Starmer says that that process should begin with the devolution of youth justice and probation, and I look to my colleagues in Westminster to make sure that that happens.
As to devolving powers beyond the Senedd, we are signatories, for example, to the mid Wales growth deal, which his party did so much to try to damage in the Gilestone Farm example. We believe in passing powers to local government. The visitor levy—[Interruption.] I think it's a very good example indeed. We are signed up to the mid Wales growth deal. The Gilestone Farm proposal would have brought jobs to mid Wales. It would have produced jobs for young people in mid Wales. It was supported by other partners to the mid Wales growth deal. We believe in things being done regionally, and I don’t think you can say the same is true of the opposition here.
I believe in giving local authorities more powers to do things. That's why we’ll bring a visitor levy in front of this Senedd, to give local authorities the power to implement that where they choose to do so. You would deny them. Week after week after week you stand up here to say how much you don’t want local authorities to have that power. So, when you say to me that devolution doesn’t end at Cardiff Bay, I believe that, and we are doing things to make sure it happens. You deny it whenever you don’t like it. Your policy of devolution to local government is you’ll give them the power if you like what they’ll do with it, and you won’t give them the power if you don’t. That’s not devolution, Llywydd, at all.
And as to the COVID inquiry, I look forward to the COVID inquiry coming to Wales. It will be here for the last week of February and the first two weeks of March. It will apply to actions that were taken here in Wales the same robust scrutiny that you have seen it apply to the actions of UK Ministers and Scottish Ministers. I look forward to the opportunity to answer as best I can the questions that will quite rightly be put to us.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I would like to start today by congratulating and thanking Laura McAllister and Rowan Williams and all the commissioners for all of their work. They have held a conversation on our constitutional future that has been broader and more inclusive than we have seen since the inception of devolution; more than we have ever had, perhaps. Over two years, they had more than 15,000 engagements with people from all parts of Wales, from all backgrounds. This has demonstrated, despite the claims from some on the benches opposite, that it’s not just the anoraks who are interested in our constitutional settlement. I would argue that one of the greatest successes of the commission’s work is to show that constitutional issues are bread-and-butter issues, and that constitutional questions are bread-and-butter questions, too.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Despite claims from some on the Conservative benches, there is nothing in the least bit vain about exploring our shared future in a spirit of openness, collaboration and objectivity. I might remind the Members opposite that the Conservative Party was an active participant in this process, and that the commission's report was signed off by somebody they appointed to it. I invite the Conservatives to consider that to be a strength of this report.
It has been almost two weeks now since the report was published, and it has, I think, already been a game changer in terms of redefining in many ways the constitutional debate in Wales, giving it both a new urgency and impetus, and a valuable new resource on which to draw. I say 'new urgency' because it states in pretty stark terms—stark cross-party terms—that the status quo is untenable. Something has to change, and there is consensus on that. And as we contemplate now and plan for that change, the commission has established a new evidence base and a new framework for analysing it.
Excitingly from my point of view, the evidence base shows that independence is a viable and achievable option for Wales. Of course, we in Plaid Cymru believe that this is the optimal choice for Wales, the best means for fulfilling the ambitions for our nation—ambitions that, hopefully, we share across this Siambr. And the commission is clear on this: without access to all the levers we need to change our economic fortunes, our story is likely to continue to be one of stagnation and managed decline, and with the full range of powers that only independence ultimately can deliver, we can change the story.
But I also know that this is a journey, and many, for perfectly understandable reasons, aren't convinced yet. The report highlights risks, yes, but that's true for all the options that face us, including the risk of staying as we are and the entrenched poverty that our membership of the UK has delivered for so many families and communities. So, people want more evidence, more discussion, of course they do. We all do. And I tell you, I am up for having as many conversations as possible, however difficult the questions are that arise.
As I say, we on these benches are clear about the scope of our ambition for and our belief in Wales—others not so much. It was disappointing, as I stated last week, that before the ink had even dried on the commission's report, the shadow Secretary of State for Wales had already taken to the airwaves to dismiss some of its key recommendations. Conversely, if I may say also in the presence of the two of them, there's been almost total radio silence from where I'm listening on the commission's recommendations from the two candidates looking to lead Welsh Labour, and I would invite them to break that silence.
I'm interested, of course, in seeing how the First Minister proposes to take this debate forward within his own party. I'm eager to work with him, or anyone who wants to take Wales's constitutional journey forward. He was such a key part of instigating this work and, despite his imminent standing down as First Minister, I doubt he will want to distance himself too much from the wider debate on the future of Wales.
Notably, there has been remarkably little said, according to the constitutional commission's joint chairs, by those who support the status quo. Why is it that they believe that this is as good as it gets for Wales? What's key, I think, is that the discussion, the genuine national discussion that we have had through the commission on Wales's future journey, should be able to continue. Will the First Minister, then, support my wish for the momentum gathered through the commission's work to be able to continue and ask for this work to continue? A permanent commission would stand us in good stead, I think. Wales's constitutional future, of course, belongs, ultimately, not to us as political parties here, but to all the people of Wales. We here can make sure that our citizens have their say, and the commission has shown how vibrant that conversation can be.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth. I agree, of course, that the nature of the work, the way that the commission went about its task, underpins the report and gives additional power to the content of the report itself.

Mark Drakeford AC: I should say, just for the record, Llywydd, that it was the Government who appointed all members of the commission. Political parties put forward names, and then the Government appointed all members, including Leanne Wood, who represented Plaid Cymru, and I know played a very, very active part in those community events and making sure that the conversations that informed the report were as lively as you would want to make them.
I agree that there is urgency in the recommendations of the report. They're particularly urgent for someone like me who believes that Wales's future is better off in the United Kingdom. Because I want to see a United Kingdom that people in Wales would want to belong to, that they would see the advantages of it, that they would see that our future is better linked with the future of other people who live in England and in Scotland in common causes. I think the debate that lies behind the report shows how urgent it is to go on building that case and making it convincing.
The report does indeed say that independence is a viable option, but in some ways that's not the real question, is it? It's not whether it's viable, it's whether it's desirable. And I am very clear, the reason I don't believe in independence is because I don't think it's desirable for Wales. I don't believe in building new barriers. I don't believe in creating new borders when borders don't exist. There is so much that links working people in Wales with working people in other parts of the United Kingdom, and that is more important, I think, as a building block for that successful future that we want to see.
The thing that surprised me the most in what the leader of Plaid Cymru said is that, in this instance alone, he doesn't appear to be paying attention to discussions within the Labour Party, which preoccupy him so often, because had he been listening carefully he would have seen that these debates are very lively inside the Labour Party and always have been.
I want to see the report as the basis for further discussion and debate. I want to find ways in which we can continue to draw on the expertise and the experience of those people who've been part of the journey that led to the report. And we'll work as a Government to find ways of making that happen. I myself look forward to being part of all of those debates. I sometimes say, when people ask me about ceasing to be First Minister, that, in the words of Tony Benn, I'll be stepping down from this job in order to spend more time in politics. [Laughter.] And in that case, that will give me scope to make this a part of what I will continue to be interested in for the future.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to the First Minister for the statement this afternoon. It's a fascinating and a challenging document. It's a serious document that challenges all of us, including, dare I say, the Conservatives, to think seriously about these matters. And it sits alongside the Thomas commission as a serious contribution to the future governance of our country. And those documents, and that evidence, and those arguments can't be dismissed in the Chamber on a Tuesday afternoon. They have to be taken seriously and engaged with. And I hope that one day a Conservative opposition is capable of doing that.
But what we need to be able to do is to look towards a different United Kingdom, First Minister. And my question for you is: how do we face up to the challenge of engaging a largely disinterested London establishment in a different future, and a future that for us in Walesis significantly different to that in which we are located today?
The commission did not discuss the financial structures of the United Kingdom and for good reasons, and I recognise that—I recognise why that was not addressed. But unless the financial structures of the United Kingdom are also changed in order to address some of the fundamental issues of power and democracy in the UK, we may have the structures but we won't have the tools to do the job. And so those things will also go together.
And finally, First Minister, it's very tempting for many people, particularly perhaps on this side of the Chamber, to say that when the Conservatives are out of power, the job is done. How do we then persuade our colleagues in the Labour Party, who will see the objective as delivering a Labour UK Government and who will then believe that the urgency of the constitutional debate is over?

Paul Davies took the Chair.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Alun Davies for all of those points, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro. He has made serious points and he is right to say that the report does make for serious and challenging reading. You would have expected no less, I think, when you look at the calibre of the people who populated the commission and the strength of the advisory group that they were able to draw on. There is a genuine depth of analysis and rigour in the way that a framework was applied to the evidence in order to come to the analysis and the conclusions that the report draws from it.
There's always a danger that, in the Labour Party, people will believe that because the Conservatives have been defeated, somehow the constitutional job is done. But I will just remind everybody that it was a Labour Government, in its very first year in 1997, after 17 years of Conservative Government, that decided that time had to be found for the constitutional reforms that led to the establishment of this Senedd. So, while there is often a tension, and there is an argument to be had, we have very solid evidence that devolution is the product of the Labour Party. We are here because of a Labour Government and the commitment that that Labour Government delivered.
How can we, in Wales, go on influencing that discussion? Well, here's my experience of being in the room with colleagues from Scotland and Northern Ireland and the UK Government. Scottish colleagues always have in their pocket the fact that they are elected as a Government with a mandate, as they would put it, to take Scotland out of the United Kingdom. That means that they are always listened to seriously. Colleagues from Northern Ireland come into the room with all of their troubled history, and the need for everybody to attend carefully to making sure that decisions are made that do not reignite those troubles. They come with the force of that in their pocket. What Wales has is simply the strength of our argument. That's our significance, and that's why I think that many independent commentators conclude that, where there has been serious thinking about the constitutional future of the United Kingdom, then, for the last 10 years or more, it is Wales that has contributed most to that debate. Whether it is the Thomas commission, whether it is the independent commission, whether it is the influence that Carwyn Jones and Paul Murphy had in the final report of the Gordon Brown work, I think that you can see Wales's contribution being there in our willingness to try to do the serious thinking, the lining up of arguments, the practical solutions that can be brought to bear. That's why this report, the final report of the commission, is so powerful: because it stands very solidly in that tradition.

Tom Giffard AS: First Minister, this report has cost so far a total of £1.5 million and counting. Quite frankly, it is not going to be taken forward under a Conservative Government, and before the ink was dry, it was slapped down by the Labour secretary of state, who said that an incoming Labour Government would be, and I quote,focusing on the issues that matter. So, I look forward, First Minister, to this report returning to the shelf and becoming the most expensive dust gatherer of all time.
Now, I wanted to pick up a point that Rhun ap Iorwerth made in his contribution, where he called for the introduction of a permanent commission to continuously look at this. I noticed that you didn't address that in your answer, so can you rule that out—the establishment of a permanent constitutional commission here in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, sorry, Dirprwy Lywydd, it is a deeply depressing contribution, isn't it, that the person makes? You would think that he might have thought himself sent here to make some sort of serious contribution to the future of the United Kingdom. But if he thinks that's all he has to offer—if what we just heard is all he has to offer—then I can tell him now that, as others here said, he understands the cost of everything and he understands the value of absolutely nothing.
My colleague Jo Stevens will be pleased that he has referred to her as the incoming Secretary of State for Wales. It was good of him to endorse her in that way. On that, at least, maybe he has read the writing on the wall. In fact, had he been listening, I did address the point that Rhun ap Iorwerth made. I said that I thought that it was very important for the conversation to continue, that it should do so in a way that captures the experience and the expertise of people who have been on the commission and who have been part of producing that report today. I am not, this afternoon, going to say that we will do that through a standing commission, or we will do it by this vehicle. The object we are agreed on. There is room for plenty of debate about the vehicle through which you achieve it.

Adam Price AC: May I think the First Minister for his statement this afternoon, and also for his leadership in ensuring that the commission came into existence and has contributed in the important way that it has already, but also for the inclusive and open spirit that both co-chairs delivered in terms of their work?

Adam Price AC: Wales is a land of commissions, as the commission says. But it does suggest, doesn't it, the need for something more durable, more permanent than simply a series of commissions over the years if we are to continuously improve our democratic health. In its first recommendation, it calls for a dedicated capacity, with new leadership supported by expertise and experience, generating new energy, new ideas for democratic innovation and civic education—a cross, if you like, between a laboratory of democracy and a nationwide school for citizenship. Indeed, as was already referenced, the commitment in the programme for government was for a standing commission.
So, I understand that the First Minister doesn't want to choose a vehicle at this point, but could I suggest a number of possibilities—spaces where we could look, maybe, to create that new capability? The soon-to-be renamed Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru de facto has a broad purpose already in promoting democratic health—could we give it that duty explicitly? Or could the soon-to-be-created national school of government be widened in its purpose, not just as a training school for civil servants, but also as an academy for the next generation of politicians and also active, informed, engaged citizens, with a research and development function for democracy as well? And wherever we decide to incubate this new capability, does the First Minister agree that we need something, a new focal point, if you like, for our democracy, working across party, beyond party—a new element in our democratic infrastructure? Because when we look at the crisis across the world in democracy, my fear is that this Siambr, whatever size we become, risks becoming an echo chamber in a vacuum unless we do something—unless we do something to revitalise our democracy. Democracy, after all, is the best hope we have in Wales, as everywhere else, to achieve progress on behalf of the people we represent.

Mark Drakeford AC: Temporary Deputy Presiding Officer, I thank Adam Price for his words about the spirit behind the commission, and I thank him for the contribution that he made when the commission was established and when we were discussing the work that the commission was going to do.

Mark Drakeford AC: What a difference, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro, in the quality of two contributions we've heard, one after the other. Many of the things Adam Price has said this afternoon I think we should think about. I think the possibility of the national school of government, for example, becoming a way in which we educate the civic leaders of the future, not simply the public service leaders of the future, is one we certainly should debate and consider. And he is right, isn't he, about the democratic crisis that we see across the world? If we're not careful, we simply believe that democracy is bound to continue, that it's inevitable that we will go on having a country where the people who end up here are here because they've been chosen by people in Wales to do the jobs that we're chosen to do. But democracy only flourishes if you tend the garden in which it is sown. And that's what this report was intended to do. To be optimistic, the reason I said in my opening statement that if there was only one chapter for colleagues to read it would be that third chapter is because of what that third chapter says: that when the commission had a room full of people who didn't quite know why they were being asked their views about these things and couldn't quite see why a discussion about constitutional futures meant anything in their lives, what they found was that it wasn't many minutes into that conversation before those links became completely evident to people—how they could see that the pethau bara menyn, the things that happen in everyday life, are rooted in the structures that the report was concerned with. And I think that is a source of optimism, but it tells us, as the report does, that that won't happen unless we're all prepared to think imaginatively and creatively, and then invest new energy in it.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I really thank all those who have contributed to bringing forward this report. It's a very serious report. It's intellectually robust. I think it's very well balanced in its considerations, and it is worthy of serious consideration by all those who think about the future, not just of this place, but the future of Wales, but also the future of Wales and these islands as well, and the governance and the government of these islands as well. And I think it deserves that seriousness of thought and engagement from all parties. And I do believe, by the way—I'll come to it in a moment—that there are things that the Conservatives will want to engage with on this.
And it does matter, because it is about the quality of our governance and our government. It is about inter-governmental and inter-parliamentary relations and respect. It is about protecting the devolution settlement right now, and putting forward proposals that could bring a constitutional settlement here in Wales, and across the UK, more suited to the current post-EU situation, and, I have to say, fit for the future as well.
And the point that I want to put to Senedd colleagues today, of all parties, is: there are recommendations in this report about not where we go in the future, but protecting devolution now, and I would say some of these recommendations echo—and I'm speaking in a personal capacity today, but they echo—some of the thoughts of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, but also House of Commons and House of Lords committees, of the inter-parliamentary forum and others, and they refer to embedding in legislation the Sewell convention, and embedding in legislation inter-governmental relations on that basis of a duty of co-operation and parity of esteem between the Governments of the UK.
So, First Minister, and Conservative colleagues, can I just suggest: those are ones that we can, right here, right now, agree to work on together, make representations to the UK Government and the UK Parliament to say, 'That, at least, we need to bolt down', because the danger highlighted in this report is one that others have already flagged up—including the LJC committee—that, without bolting those down, we are in danger of rolling backwards down the devolution hill.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the report is very clear that, unless action is taken, then devolution in Wales will atrophy, that you can't just stand still. And we haven't been standing still, because we've seen things flow away from this Senedd and back to London. And, as Huw Irranca-Davies has said, Dirprwy Lywydd, it also is very clear in many of its pages that its audience is not just the Welsh Government; it is very much the Senedd itself. And Huw makes a really important point about the way in which parliamentary action—which is reflected in many reports, in the House of Lords and the House of Commons, as well as here and elsewhere—and the capacity of legislatures to get together to enhance the way in which power is properly distributed through the United Kingdom and then comes back together again to discharge common purposes, for which we agree that we want to share that sovereignty—. I think the report is very powerful in those instances too.

Paul Davies AC: And finally, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd dros dro. First Minister, I was very taken with the report, which, obviously, I read in detail, and I think there's a lot of useful information to glean from it. Obviously, like you, I'm a committed unionist. I want to see Wales playing a full part in the UK, and the fact that Wales has two Governments batting for it—one at one end of the M4, and one at this end of the M4—I think is a good thing.
Now, obviously, there were some things that were concerning in the report, which the commission has highlighted, and I want to thank them for their work, by the way. One of those things was the lack of awareness amongst citizens in Wales of the powers and responsibilities and where they lie, whether at the Senedd or at UK Parliament level. And I wonder to what extent you are prepared to look at what might be done not just in terms of our education system, with citizenship education—which, of course, is very important—but for the wider population, many of whom will not be going through the education system at the moment, but still need educating about where responsibilities lie.
Of course, the report focused also on the poor relationships there have been in recent years between the Governments of the United Kingdom. We know that there are often stresses and strains when there are different political make-ups in different places, and no doubt that that has added to it, as has, of course, the whole Brexit situation. But, clearly, there is a desire amongst the public for those things to improve, regardless of the colours of the political parties in each place. And again, I wonder to what extent you might reflect on the fact that things have improved significantly since there's been a change of premiership in Westminster, over the past 12 months, at least.
And thirdly, just to pick up on the issue in relation to inter-parliamentary relationships—and I think this is a really important one, actually—as you'll know, I'm a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, and like to play a full part in the work of that Assembly. And that of course looks at the relationship across the islands, including with the Republic of Ireland. But I think that we do desperately need a forum for relationships within the United Kingdom, without the Republic of Ireland being part of that, because there are some things that are of interest to all of the Parliaments of the United Kingdom that are not, frankly, being discussed in an open way, with proper engagement. And therefore, I wonder what work the Welsh Government will do to develop an inter-parliamentary assembly of sorts, working with the Senedd, of course, as its representative—

Paul Davies AC: Can the Member please conclude now?

Darren Millar AC: —in order to make sure that those sorts of debates and discussions can be facilitated. Because this report doesn't dwell on that, but it is an important thing that does need to come out of this work.

Mark Drakeford AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm grateful to Darren Millar for that thoughtful contribution and for the respect that he showed to the work of the commission and those who have contributed so much to it. I think the citizen awareness issue—I'm absolutely agreeing with him about the need for us to do more and to do more education. My own experience over, now, certainly more than 40 years of bothering people in their own homes, knocking their doors at election, when somebody comes to the door, in some ways, it's all Government, isn't it? I've knocked doors in community council elections, local authority elections, Senedd elections, parliamentary elections, European elections. The person who comes to the door, in some ways, they don't want to know about that, they want to know, 'Why can't I park my car?', 'When's that rubbish going to be collected?' It's the things that they see from their own doorstep, aren't they, that they want to talk to you about. So, while I'm in favour of us doing more so that people do understand the system better, know where responsibility lies, I think probably we all recognise that what people are most interested in, whatever level of government that you are involved in, are the things that they see, that matter to them, day in and day out.
Look, there's been some improvement in the tone of inter-governmental relationships since the arrival of Rishi Sunak as Prime Minister. He does have a greater willingness to recognise that the United Kingdom is made up of different component parts and deserve respect. But it has to be more than that. The inter-governmental relations machinery, which took five years to agree, commissioned by Theresa May, concluded, as I say, five years later, has at the heart of it a council of Ministers. It didn't meet once in the whole of 2023, despite the many challenges we know that we were facing—the cost of living and other crises. Not once did that council meet. And while the tone is better, the actual performance, it's hard to say that there has been the improvement there that is necessary.
I agree with what Darren Millar said as well, Llywydd, about inter-parliamentary, the strengthening of that, and there's a lot of work going on at a parliamentary level to do that. It's not for the Government to lead that or to try to influence it, but I myself am pleased to see it. What we need, though, is that more robust machinery that Darren Millar pointed to. It's there in the pages of the report. The Gordon Brown report proposes a new council of the nations and the regions, as a place where we can all come together and discuss and discharge those things that we know matter to people wherever they live in the United Kingdom. And I think if that council was meeting today, they would want to see this report, and there would be a forum where we would be able to take it forward. And I think that's also another very important part of this constitutional jigsaw. Dirprwy Lywydd, diolch yn fawr.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you, First Minister.

4. Statement by the Minister for Climate Change: White Paper for a proposed Bill on environmental principles, environmental governance and biodiversity targets

Paul Davies AC: We'll move on to item 4, a statement by the Minister for Climate Change, a White Paper for a proposed Bill on environmental principles, environmental governance and biodiversity targets, and I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.Today, I've published our White Paper on establishing environmental principles, strengthening environmental governance and introducing biodiversity targets for a greener Wales.This White Paper sets out proposals to introduce a Bill into the Senedd that will embed environmental principles into Welsh law, ensuring there is no drop in environmental quality or standards following our departure from the European Union. It will strengthen environmental governance in Wales by establishing a new body to oversee implementation and compliance with environmental law by Welsh public authorities. And, finally, it will introduce a new approach towards biodiversity targets to combat the ongoing nature emergency.
The proposals reflect our commitment towards a greener Wales to tackle climate change and the nature emergency, as set out in our programme for government. The proposals have been developed as part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. Here in Wales, we have responded to the climate and nature emergency through our programme for government. We have prioritised reform of agricultural support and introduced new clean air legislation. We have progressed implementation of a new net-zero target and set out a pathway to delivery. We have created new grants for nature restoration, radically redirected transport expenditure, made planning reforms and have supported investments in meeting water quality targets.
We have rightly prioritised active reform to support the environment, and the proposals in the White Paper published today will secure these essential reforms by strengthening our overarching governance framework. In doing so, we will ensure public authorities in Wales comply with environmental law according to the expectations of people in Wales. This approach is not simply an exercise in replacing structures and legislation that were in place whilst we were a member of the European Union; our approach is tailored to the Welsh context. We will be placing a duty on Welsh Ministers not only to give due regard to the EU-derived environmental principles, but to set out in statutory guidance exactly how these principles will be regarded during the development of policy.
The governance body will similarly reflect Wales’s priorities. The body will work in a spirit of collaboration and take an escalatory approach, working with Welsh public authorities to put things right. However, where this is not possible, the body will be rightly empowered to take effective enforcement action to ensure compliance. In publishing these proposals, I would like to acknowledge the work of the interim environmental protection assessor for Wales, Dr Nerys Llewelyn Jones. The IEPAW has, and continues to, carry out a valuable role in relation to the functioning of environmental law in Wales, and the White Paper sets out proposals that will build on the important work of the IEPAW.
In December 2022, I set out our ambitions for addressing the nature emergency on the world stage at COP15 in Montreal. As part of our response to the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework, I committed to setting ambitious nature targets to protect and restore biodiversity.Recognising the need for sustained and long-term action to deliver the transformative change needed, the White Paper introduces a strategic nature recovery framework to protect and restore biodiversity, as well as providing increased accountability and transparency. This includes statutory biodiversity targets, comprising a headline nature positive target to be detailed in the Bill, and a suite of supporting biodiversity targets to be set in secondary legislation. We anticipate that some of these will be new targets, whilst others will align with existing environmental targets that have already been designed to support reducing pressure on ecosystems and increasing nature restoration. Once established, we would seek the input of the new governance body in identifying new targets that can most effectively drive additional positive progress on nature.
The White Paper proposes the Welsh Government will produce a nature recovery strategy that sets out the Welsh Government’s long-term vision for a nature positive Wales, and a nature recovery action plan, which will detail the shorter term actions needed to achieve the statutory biodiversity targets. Achieving this ambition will require a Wales-wide approach. That is why I am also proposing local nature recovery plans to be produced by Welsh public authorities. These will outline priorities and action at the local level, whilst supporting regional collaboration.
This approach complements our broader focus on a resilient Wales, the scope of which encompasses the whole of Wales, not only designated protected sites. Our ambitions are to ensure protected sites are maintained and enhanced, to avoid unnecessary environmental damage right across Wales and undertake proactive restoration of nature in areas where it has been degraded. Dirprwy Lywydd, I am very grateful for the help and energy of all the stakeholders who have come together to support this work to date,and we will continue these detailed discussions as we refine our policy proposals and bring forward legislation.
This Government's approach to the environment is rooted in social justice. Our obligations under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 are to ensure that we meet the needs of the people of Wales today in a way that does not deprive future generations of their ability to meet theirs. In this way, conserving natural resources and sharing the benefits of them is a matter of fairness. The proposals published today are designed to help shape the agenda of public services in Wales, including how they work together with communities and businesses to secure a more sustainable relationship with our natural world. Diolch.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Minister, for this statement. The White Paper is certainly a step in the right direction, because it does put nature, the environment and biodiversity at the forefront of our minds in terms of legislation. However, could you solve a little problem for me, Minister? Could you advise as to why this White Paper has not yet been published, according to the Library? Once I know you're coming forward with statements, we normally get the paper and read it, so that we can actually raise any concerns, and I'm struggling to find it.
We need to embed our response to the climate and nature emergency in everything we do. During the legislative process of the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill, a majority of this Senedd passed over our amendments, which would have pushed forward the creation of an environmental governance body for Wales. This is already long overdue and has been requested through our environment and climate change committee so many times. And it gets worse: I heard in our committee last week that there is now even some uncertainty as to when regulations required as a consequence of that Act will come forward.
Despite the biodiversity deep-dive resulting in the adoption of the aim of the protection of 30 per cent of land and sea, you have still not taken up the opportunity to put this on a statutory footing. Of course, you have invested £15 million in the Nature Networks programme, to protect Wales's diverse natural habitats, from salt marshes and estuaries to forests and grasslands, and I'm really, really grateful to you for doing that, and it's something that we're both keen to ensure happens, but you are missing a real opportunity to go further, especially in the marine environment.
There are specific projects, as you know, which are exciting, such as salt marsh work in Carmarthenshire, the Conwy estuary and the Severn, and sea cliffs on the Llŷn peninsula and Ynys Môn, but these are not seeing change nationwide. For example, I have previously called for the creation of a national blue carbon recovery plan for Wales, designed to maintain and enhance our invaluable marine blue carbon habitat. That would have targets set for all of Wales, including on marine sediments, seagrass, salt marshes, subtidal sedimentary habitats and shellfish. Despite the Senedd backing our legislative proposals to have a national marine development plan for Wales, which would help to create certainty for all parties and avoid any confrontation at the application stage, because the sea bed could then be mapped out, like we do with local development plans—it's that kind of action we're looking for you to take.
I have personally written to you and I've met with your officials to discuss ways we can also integrate renewable energy with marine nature recovery at the same time. Belgian offshore windfarms offer the unique environment to restore oyster reefs, and I love the work that you're already helping to support on this. The project, known as UNITED, focuses on synergies between offshore wind production and flat oyster aquaculture and restoration. Bottom fishing is not allowed in wind parks, which prevents reef damage. I was just wondering whether you would just say something today on bottom fishing. The hard substrate used as scour protection around wind turbines actually is ideal for oyster larvae to settle and initiate natural reefs. It would be really good if we could follow that lead here in Wales.
I would really like to see a statement or something from you today about whether you are essentially blocking renewable energy projects on or near our peatland and the reasons for that. I have written to you with evidence believing that both can co-exist and that the wording of chapter 6 of 'Planning Policy Wales' could be changed so that there is this flexibility. This is an area of policy that I know we are both particularly interested in, so I look forward to working with you and making that joint dive that you've invited me to in a seagrass meadow.
So, could you please clarify the timeline for the White Paper to become a draft Bill before this Senedd and explain why some of the targets will be set in secondary legislation, rather than primary, because we're already seeing now, with the infrastructure Bill coming through, how over-reliant it is on secondary legislation, and that has been described to us as not satisfactory? Could you give an indication as to when we should expect to have an environmental governance body up and running? Would you use the legislation as a means of creating a legal duty for the Welsh Government to plan and create a national marine development plan, a spatial one, outline what progress has been made so far on achieving the 30:30 aim, and explain what consideration has been given to the considerable pressures within public authorities before expecting them to produce local nature recovery plans? Diolch.

Julie James AC: Thank you, Janet. I don't know if you managed to attend the technical briefings that were offered this morning. E-mails did go out with copies of the White Paper there, apologies if you didn't get one, and it's been published today, so that's why it's not in the Library yet. There's obviously then an opportunity to put all the points you've made about what you'd like to see included in the targets, and not included in the targets, as part of the consultation process. I'm sure you'll respond to it.
There are a number of things that you raised that we probably would like to see a target for. The targets are going to be set out in secondary legislation, much as the clean air Act was structured, so we'll have the headline global biodiversity goal in it, the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity goals for 30 per cent, but we're being very specific: 30 per cent of our land, our rivers and our sea. That's not just 30 per cent of everything, because it does actually work out differently, if you do it like that.
The whole point of this is to set up the governance body to make sure that we then do what we say we'll do, but also to give us advice on those targets as the thing progresses. That would include the best way to do restorations, or the percentage of restorations we might do, and the difficulties of what goes with what, so the windfarm thing that you point out. Actually, as you also rightly pointed out, marine windfarms can be very useful in terms of preventing bottom trawling and behaving as nurseries for various species and so on. So, the point of this process is that this is the White Paper, the consultation on which will lead to the Bill. It will feed into the Bill. The Bill is already under way. It takes a good year to get a Bill in shape to come to the committee, especially with the translation process and the equivalency checks and all the rest of it. So, this is the beginning of that Bill making its passage through the Senedd.
So, Dirprwy Lywydd, I would say that we all should encourage as many people as possible in all of our constituencies right across Wales—I don't mean just our political constituencies, I mean our constituencies of communities and all the rest of it—to make sure that we get as much response as possible. It is directly coming out of the deep-dive work, so the structure of it has directly come out of the stakeholder work that we did. I'm not expecting any of our major stakeholders to have a real show-stopper response to this, but we are expecting, of course, nuances around how the thing should be structured and so on.

Delyth Jewell AC: Minister, I welcome this statement. There is a genuine need for urgent legislation on this issue. We appreciate the opportunity to discuss it, of course, because now is our opportunity to close a gap that exists in our nation’s environmental protections. I welcome the determination of the Government to respond to the nature emergency. We, as a party, of course, held the debate to declare the nature emergency. It was an important moment, but there is no momentum behind a moment unless action follows. So, now is the time for that action, and I welcome that.
There is a great deal to welcome regarding the content of the White Paper. The overall target is important, and establishing independent environmental governance arrangements will, again, be another significant moment. Of course, we've been waiting too long for this—the climate change committee has looked at this already—and we will need to ensure that the arrangements not only work well, but that the public understand them. So, what assurance can you give us about your engagement with the public, to ensure that they are more aware of where to turn to access advice and help, particularly if there is confusion regarding the difference between this body and NRW?
In terms of the timing and implementation—you've had questions on this already—could you confirm that every effort will be made by the Government to avoid further delay unless such delay is unavoidable, please? Of course, I welcome the targets, although they will be set in secondary legislation. But I would like to understand more about the methodology that will be applied to set and monitor the targets. I know that that information might not be available at present, but when it is available, will it be made public, please?
On the effectiveness of the regulatory body, what enforcement powers will that body have, again, as compared to NRW? Because there are problems in terms of NRW’s capacity for enforcement action when the rules are breached, as with sewage releases in our rivers, for example. What assurance will there be that this body will not suffer that same fate? And finally, how will you ensure the independence of this body from the Government?
So, quite a number of questions there, but I certainly welcome this development. I look forward to working together and to seeing this body being scrutinised, of course, so that all of our concerns about the natural world are responded to and that wildlife is protected. And I’d like to echo your words in thanking Nerys and everyone who’s been working with her on the important work that they have been doing in that interim period. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Yes, diolch yn fawr, Delyth. You make a number of very good points, of course. So, it is a significant moment, I think, and it is an absolute fact that we're the last of the nations to do this. However, I do honestly think this is a chance to leapfrog the other nations, so we will go from last to first, because we're able now to learn from the problems and difficulties that have been in both the English and Scottish models. Officials there have been very happy to share with us things they wished they'd done or hadn't done or whatever, and to learn from the things that they've done well, and we've been able to pick up that as well. So, I think we will end up having the best of that, because we've been able to pick up a lot of what's been learned, and, of course, I can't say often enough how well Nerys and her team have done.
I should apologise in public: I had a horrible virus that all of you may be familiar with last week, so I was confined to quarters, and it meant I couldn't meet her in person as I'd planned to do. It was fantastic to get a negative result on Saturday and be released. [Interruption.] Well, exactly. But it was a shame not to have been able to. I hope to be able to rearrange that meeting.
But her team's expertise has been invaluable in addressing some of the issues around resource. You know we've put more resource into her team, for example. And of course, when the Bill does come in front of the committees, it will come with a complete financial and regulatory impact assessment associated with it, and in the budget scrutiny in committees, I've been very plain that we've protected the legislation budgets in order to be able to get the legislation through, in order for that not to become one of the issues, for obvious reasons.
The interface will be an interesting one; it's something that we will get more out of in the consultation, and it's something that the committees will want to have a look at. But, broadly, this is not a regulatory authority; this is an authority that gives guidance to public authorities on how to set the targets and monitor and make sure they do them. We would expect a regulatory breach to go across to NRW, but we will need to work on the edges of that and we will expect the organisations to work collaboratively with one another, so that we don't have a complex landscape. You're right to highlight how will members of the public understand that, and part of the duty of the governance body will be to make sure, in the same way the commissioners do, that its own work is understood.
In fact, we've looked very hard at the Welsh Language Commissioner's office structure in looking at the proposals here, which I'm sure you know already are for a commission rather than a commissioner, because we expect to need a range of different scientific expertise across the commission, but, of course, with a chair that would become the focal person, if you like, because I do think that's important.
We think it's very important that it is independent of the Welsh Government, that it holds our feet to the fire. One of the discussions that will occur as part of this consultation is to what extent should other public bodies be included in the Act. There are pros and cons to that, and I'm sure that will be part of the consultation. So, should individual local authorities be specifically bound by it, or should they be done as regional consortia, or what is the structure of that? The committees will take, I'm sure, an interest in that and be able to assist us with that. That's very much part of what the consultation is about.
The last bit is just to say that we haven't got any room for slippage here. We want to make sure the committee does its work well, and therefore we have to get it into the committee in the slot that's been identified. And it's the second-to-last Bill to go through the Senedd in this Senedd term, so slippage is not an option, and we have to get this right. It's why the consultation needs to be thorough, we need to make it land properly, and then the results of that consultation need to feed into the drafting so that we can all be reassured that we're making the best law we can.

John Griffiths AC: I very much welcome the White Paper, Minister, and it's very good to hear you say that although we are in a relatively weak position at the moment in terms of our governance structures and lack of targets and other very important elements of protecting our nature and our biodiversity, we will leap ahead, as it were, in terms of other parts of the UK, because obviously that's where everybody within this Chamber, I think, would like to see our country placed. Minister, would you agree that it's very important that we focus on some very good examples in terms of our biodiversity and our environment and the need to protect it and give it these structures and targets for protection, such as the Gwent levels, for example, which I represent part of? There, we have a real focus on these issues, very good buy-in from organisations like the Gwent Wildlife Trust and a huge number of volunteers working day in, day out. And, of course, we have iconic species like the water vole, which I'm very pleased to champion. We need to take the public and groups with us, Minister, and I think we need to focus on areas that enable us to do that.

Julie James AC: I couldn't agree more with you, John. I think one of the things that we'll be very interested in doing is making sure that the governance body, in looking at the targets it sets for the various public bodies that are taken up by it, takes into account the citizen science that's very readily available, much of it of the absolute best quality, global standard quality. So, we will certainly be building on that. The purpose of this is to set secondary targets, sometimes across Wales, for species decline or restoration, but actually, sometimes, for very specific areas. I know the Gwent levels is very dear to your heart, but there are other areas like that. I recently visited the Dyfi biosphere, for example, who have a very similar group of volunteers equally determined to make sure that that area stays in that condition, or actually is recovered back to the condition for some parts of it.
We will need to look at geographical targets, pan-species targets and at ecology system targets. That's part of what we want to do and it will be part of what the committees look at in terms of what the secondary legislation is enabled to do. The Bill will need to enable the different kinds of targets that can be set in order to get the kinds of outcomes that you're looking for. I really do think it will set us on a different course as we look to protect those systems. That is very much the green lung, isn't it, of the conurbation of the south-east, and the same can be said of the Dyfi biosphere and, indeed, of Gower, where I happen to live. These things give life to our cities and our planet, and, indeed, to us as humans; it's not just for their own sake. So, I do think that will be very important.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much for your work as being both the custodian of combating the climate emergency as well as the biodiversity emergency. I'm very pleased that we are now setting in stone the environmental protection we need moving forward. Clearly, this is going to involve quite a lot of work with your colleague Lesley Griffiths, as the Minister for rural affairs, where public money for public goods is a really important principle of the new sustainable land scheme.
Talking to farmers in Treorchy 10 days ago, it's clear that farmers are often really not aware of the huge value of their peat bogs and places for nature on their farms—both for biodiversity and in financial terms in the future scheme. So, whereas one of the organic farmers who is farming on the edge of Cardiff West was able to tell me, 'I've got 275 species happily co-existing with my cows and sheep', I'm reasonably confident that she's quite unusual in understanding what biodiversity assets she's husbanding. So, how do you envisage this co-construction of these local nature recovery plans to achieve the baseline of biodiversity depletion or wealth that already exists on many farms, so that we know what objectives we're paying for, and how we're able track the outcomes of the public investment specifically designed to improve biodiversity?
My second question is around water pollution. In the climate change committee, we've heard from Glenys Stacey, the chair of the Office for Environmental Protection for England, and, for the time being, Northern Ireland, and she's really clear that the OEP won't rely on fines to enforce the regulations, because the directors of whichever company it is just pass on the fines to the public in their bills.

Paul Davies AC: Can you conclude now, please?

Jenny Rathbone AC: What levers do you envisage in these regulations for tackling the water pollution that's absolutely one of the key serious issues that we face?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Jenny. I'll do that slightly the other way around. The policy intent of the Bill is that oversight of private persons exercising functions of a public nature in Wales that could relate to or impact the environment will be captured. So, the water companies will be captured, and there are others as well; harbour authorities and others will be captured. And so, the Bill will bite on them, and so when they put their infrastructure investment programme to Ofwat, et cetera, they will have to take into account the embedded environmental principles of the Bill. In that way, it drives a different approach to that. It won't solve the problem of the water industry only being funded from its bill payers, which is something the UK Government needs to do, and I hope an incoming Labour Government will do. It is an absolute nonsense that the Government spends money on road intersections but can't spend on water infrastructure because they're allegedly the property of the water company. That's just a nonsense, but it's a not nonsense I can particularly change in this Bill. What I can do is drive a different investment strategy for the market that exists. We will certainly be doing that.
And yes, it absolutely interacts with the sustainable farming scheme. I do think we have a very large number of farmers across Wales who are very well aware of biodiversity. We had a large number of farmers contributing to the biodiversity deep-dive, in fact. I think Members will have heard me telling the tale of the eight-month pregnant young woman farmer showing me her biodiverse farm in between Amroth and Saundersfoot, up a cliff so steep that I could not keep up with her. She was amazing, and the enhancement of the biodiversity on that working farm, and the actual enhancement to their income as a result of that, was quite something to behold. She now has a very healthy next-generation farmer coming along nicely. But she was inspirational, and we had a large number of other farmers on our deep-dive who were absolutely inspirational too. So, I think the combination of reward and imperative from the governance bodies will see a step change in that.
Obviously, the sustainable farming scheme is about an income for farmers as they change those practices, as well as rewards for farmers who are changing faster, and Lesley and I have had a large number of conversations about that interaction. But we can't do this without our landowners coming with us. So, part of what this body will have to do is it will have to look at the interaction of the public duty with the landholdings across Wales. So, in looking at, for example, national parks, it will have to look at what the policy for farming inside the national parks looks like, and make sure that people have sustainable incomes on their farm as we change to a new system. So, it's very much part of what we're doing, and I think it will drive a real change in attitude. It also, of course, goes alongside the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which is globally famous. Everywhere we go as members of the Government, we're asked to comment on how on earth we got the future generations Act through. Perhaps we take it a bit for granted now, but it's seismic in its operation, and I think this new Bill will only enhance that reputation.

Paul Davies AC: And finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, you promised that after COP15 and after the biodiversity deep-dive you would come back to us with something better, more meaningful, more well focused on really positive outcomes for nature, so here we are today. I really welcome the statement and the publication of this White Paper with an extremely long environmental name. As part of the consultation, maybe we could look at a short title for the Bill when it comes forward, and my opening gambit is 'nature recovery and environmental governance Bill', so it says on it exactly what it's meant to do. We can do the other stuff and it might be even shorter again.
Could I ask you, Minister, within the proposals coming forward—? I'm going to go to the high level, because we'll dive into the detail, I know. But on the high level, what does this mean for citizens and their ability to see where our approach to nature recovery is working and where it is failing, and how they can then challenge that failure?
Secondly, we talk about this will be taken forward, this governance body working in the spirit of collaboration, taking an escalatory approach, working with public authorities to put things right. Does she agree with me that, actually, let's not put things right after the event, let's put things right in advance, and that's got to be one of the roles of what we're doing here?
Could I ask her, in terms of the targets, which were always the things that were going to be difficult with this—and she said she would come back after COP15 better informed as to where we should shape those targets—will there now be full, detailed, meaningful engagement, not just with the wider citizenry, but also with all of those environmental organisations, as well as farmers and so on, to get those targets absolutely right? Because that is critical.
And finally, on the issue of designated protected sites, this has long been an issue of contention, because as we have climate change, it means those sites change themselves—the habitats change, the species move. So, where are we currently? What will this Bill do in terms of the way we look at protecting our most special sites, but also the fact that climate change is shifting the movement of those sites as well? Lot's more questions to follow, but there's an opening gambit.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Julie James AC: Thank you very much, Huw. Bill titles are always an interesting conversation between the office of the legislative counsel, who have a very determined view of what the Bill title should do, and those of us who'd like something slightly more snazzy. But they become known for what they are. So, the clean air Act is not, of course, called 'the clean air Act', but that's what it's now called in common parlance. I suspect we'll have something along those lines. People will respond to the consultation that 'nature positive Bill' is the one that seems very favoured at the moment from a large number of people. But that's where we're going with it, because that's what it will be.
The point here is it's not just about restoration or recovery, it's about being positive about nature in all of its aspects, understanding that without nature, our ecosystems, we can't exist, and that they're pretty fundamental to what we are. It always fascinates me that people just simply do not see that, without the various parts of nature, we couldn't breathe or drink or eat. These things are fundamental to the human race. And you've heard me say before that this isn't about protecting the planet—the planet will go on. It's about protecting humankind on the planet. That's a very different thing. So, I couldn't agree more.
In terms of the targets, the proposed headline nature positive target is that of the global biodiversity framework—so, to reverse the decline in biodiversity with an improvement in the status of species and ecosystems by 2030, and their clear recovery by 2050. That's obviously aimed at driving ambition and actions to tackle both the nature and the climate emergencies, because they're two sides of the same coin. And that business about things moving around is, of course, driven by the climate emergency. So, as we look at being resilient to the climate emergency, as well as trying to prevent some of the more catastrophic changes in the climate, we will, of course, have to have a better attitude towards the hard-edged designated landscapes, which we'll certainly be looking at. And it aligns with the well-being goals of a resilient Wales and recognising the need to protect our natural resources. Let's not forget we've already got that in law in Wales. We do tend to forget that.
As we go through the committee, we will have a discussion about what else needs to be on the face of the Bill and, no doubt, we will have a robust discussion about it, as we did with the clean air Act, because I think there is a balance to be struck between what the Bill says upfront about what we should do and what the governance body will do, and then what we're able to put into secondary legislation that drives forward a constant improvement. As you know, if you put things on the face of the Bill, they tend to get set in stone and become outdated pretty quickly, especially in this area where a lot of science is shifting all the time. So, it will be a task for the committees to work with us to make sure that we get that balance right. I hope we will be able to put some of the secondary stuff in front of the committee, but a lot of that depends on what we can do with our scientists behind the scenes who are working on some of this, and indeed on some of the consultation responses as we get them back. But I think, at the end of this Senedd term, we will have a Bill that we can be rightly proud of on a global stage as well as here at home.
Oh, a different Dirprwy Lywydd is ending the debate.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you, Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip: Holocaust Memorial Day

Joyce Watson AC: We'll move on now to a statement by the Minister for Social Justice on Holocaust memorial. I call on the Minister for Social Justice—Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, acting Presiding Officer. Saturday was Holocaust Memorial Day, and here at the Senedd we marked this day by illuminating our building in purple. In the darkness, this light reminded us of the millions of people who were persecuted and killed during the Holocaust and subsequent genocides. At 8.00 p.m. on the same day, people across the UK joined in with the 'light the darkness' moment by lighting candles and placing them in their windows. Other buildings and landmarks across the UK were also lit up in purple during this national moment of solidarity. Many places across Wales took part, including the bandstand and Canolfan Alun R. Edwards in Aberystwyth, and County Hall in Carmarthen.
Alongside the First Minister, many of us attended the Wales Holocaust Memorial Day ceremony on Friday, 26 January, at the Temple of Peace, which provided an opportunity to reflect on a part of history that we and future generations must never forget. It was a very moving ceremony, with addresses by John HajduMBE, a Holocaust survivor from Hungary, and Isam Agieb, who had fled the genocide in Darfur. The South Wales Jewish Representative Council, Disability Wales, Stonewall Cymru, Romani Cultural and Arts Company and the Equality and Human Rights Commission all participated in the service, which highlighted some of the different communities of people targeted during the Holocaust. Current conflicts in the middle east and Ukraine, the thousands of lives lost in those conflicts and the suffering still being endured, were uppermost in the minds of those who attended the ceremony. I know people across Wales will join the Welsh Government in showing solidarity with all those who continue to suffer persecution and violence.
Numerous events took place across Wales, including Father's House Sabbath Congregation in Flintshire, who held their annual Holocaust memorial service, themed 'no escape'. The memorial was presented by Pastor Michael Fryer, along with guest speakers Mark Tami MP, Carolyn Thomas MS, Jack Sargeant MS, and a pupil from Queensferry C.P. Primary School.
The Josef Herman Art Foundation commemorated Holocaust Memorial Day in partnership with the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea. On 27 January a special film screening took place of The Silent Village, a 1943 British propaganda short film. The film is based on the true story of the massacre of the Czech village of Lidice, retold as if it had happened in Wales.
The theme for Holocaust Memorial Day 2024 is the 'fragility of freedom'. In their introduction to this year's theme, the Holocaust Memorial Trust highlighted that freedom cannot be taken for granted and we must not be complacent—we must fight to ensure it is never lost. They emphasised that the erosion of freedom is often a subtle, slow process and the impact is far-reaching:
'Not only do perpetrator regimes erode the freedom of the people they are targeting, demonstrating how fragile freedom is, they also restrict the freedoms of others around them, to prevent people from challenging the regime. Despite this, in every genocide there are those who risk their own freedom to help others, to preserve others’ freedom or to stand up to the regime.'
The theme this year underlined the numerous ways in which freedom is restricted and eroded. It shone a light on the individuals who risked their freedom to save others and emphasised that liberation does not necessarily mean to be completely free. Ordinary people find themselves having to move to a new country; they are often separated from their families and are required to rebuild their lives. All of this whilst simultaneously trying to overcome the trauma resulting from their persecution.
The Welsh Government funded the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust to employ a support worker in Wales who, for the past few months, has been working with communities and organisations to plan and support commemorative activities across Wales.
The Welsh Government continues to fund the Holocaust Educational Trust to run the Lessons from Auschwitz project in Wales. This is a unique four-part course, comprising two seminars, a one-day visit to Poland, and a next-steps project through which students pass on the lessons they have learned. Much more than just an excursion, it's a powerful journey of learning and exploration about the history of the Holocaust and the world we live in. In 2023 110 students from 55 Welsh schools took part in the project. This included six schools who took part in the programme for the first time. The next Lessons from Auschwitz course for Wales is expected to take place this year, in February or March.
Tackling antisemitism remains a high priority for Welsh Government. In July I met with the UK Government’s independent adviser on antisemitism, Lord Mann, to discuss his report on 'Tackling Antisemitism in the UK 2023' and how we as a Government will support the implementation of the recommendations in Wales. Lord Mann welcomed the Curriculum for Wales and its focus on helping children and young people to develop as ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world, recognising it as a platform to address antisemitism in Wales.
In December I issued a joint letter with the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to all headteachers in Wales to provide guidance and support to schools and education settings on how to effectively address antisemitism and Islamophobia, including ways of supporting learners and their families. While it is important to reflect on the past, it's equally vital to consider what we can do now and in future to ensure that Wales is, and will remain, a compassionate, globally responsible nation. In an increasingly unstable world, individuals need to be supported to achieve integration and acceptance, regardless of their background or circumstances. In the face of these challenges, Wales must be vigilant in our resolve to tackle the latent and blatant forces that drive the persecution of minorities at all levels in our society, whether that be institutional, social or cultural.
The theme for National Hate Crime Awareness Week 2023 was faith-based hate, with a focus on antisemitism, which provided an opportunity to raise this issue to a range of audiences via many collaborative events that took place across Wales. The Deputy Minister for Social Partnership spoke at a national event, organised by the Wales Hate Support Centre, to mark the week. We remain grateful to the centre, which is funded by the Welsh Government and run by Victim Support Cymru, for the support it provides Jewish and other faith communities in Wales, and for working closely with police as part of this work.
The faith communities forum, which was established in the wake of 9/11, is co-chaired by myself and the First Minister. Through the forum, the Welsh Government has worked closely with faith representatives on matters affecting the social, economic and cultural life of Wales. This forum also has a vital role in promoting good relations between people of different faiths and beliefs. These strong relationships are so important now as a way for us to work together to build a safer world in the future.
So, I will close this statement by thanking the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust and the Holocaust Educational Trust for their vital work. We condemn the vile hatred expressed by individuals who seek to create a climate of fear and aim to fragment our communities. Today and moving forward we have a duty to ensure that Wales continues to stand up to all forms of hate, to help create a safer and more equal nation, where difference is accepted and embraced. Diolch.

Joyce Watson AC: I call on Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Well, Holocaust Memorial Day takes place, as we've heard, on 27 January each year—the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau, the largest Nazi death camp, on 27 January 1945; remembering the millions of people murdered during the Holocaust under Nazi persecution and in the genocides that followed in Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Darfur; and educating generations of young people about this terrible history and the need to stand up against acts of bigotry and hatred today. In addition to the 6 million Jewish people murdered in the Holocaust, Nazi authorities also targeted and killed other groups, including children because of their perceived racial and biological inferiority, Roma and Sinti Gypsies, disabled Germans, LGBT people, and some of the Slavic peoples, especially Poles and Russians. Other groups were persecuted on political, ideological and behavioural grounds. So—and I'm sure she will—will the Minister agree that the past informs the future and that those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat its mistakes and atrocities?
Auschwitz initially served as a detention centre for political prisoners. However, it evolved into a network of camps, where Jewish people and other perceived enemies of the Nazi state were exterminated, often in gas chambers or used as slave labour. I visited the rightly unsettling Holocaust museum, when in Israel, and last September I made a moving visit to Auschwitz-Birkenau, the largest of the Nazi concentration and death camps. The empty barracks, the barbed-wire fencing, the solemn exhibits, the telltale chimneys—all these vestiges left a strong impression. But what struck me most was the sheer vastness of the sprawling memorial to history's most notorious death camp. I also made an evocative visit to Oskar Schindler's factory in Krakow. So, how can the Welsh Government hardwire education about the Holocaust, including the horrors that happened in Auschwitz-Birkenau and other death camps, into our schools and wider information sources for each generation?
You state that the Welsh Government funded the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust to employ a support worker in Wales. You also shared this with us in your statement on Holocaust Memorial Day last year. What update can you provide on their activities since then?
Several of my own children who attended Castell Alun High School in Flintshire benefited from a visit to Auschwitz-Birkenau with the school. They happened to be one of those schools that recognised how important it was that this was given attention, but there are many others that don't. How can we ensure that this becomes embedded on a more mainstream basis, not just in those schools that are at the forefront of this sort of issue, but those that perhaps need to be helped further along the way? How will this also embed the new resource for secondary schools in Wales about the Romani Holocaust, or porajmos, launched by the Romani Cultural and Arts Company with funding from the UK Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities? And how will this ensure public awareness of the close to 0.25 million disabled children and adults who were also murdered under the Nazi regime?
North Wales Police recorded a rise in religious hate crime in the weeks following the outbreak of the Hamas-Israel conflict last year. The number of antisemitic hate crimes recorded by several of Wales's police forces have also seen similar rises. Does the Minister agree, and I'm sure she will, that this is a grim wake-up call? Therefore, what further action is the Welsh Government taking to counter this rise in religious and racial hate crime?
I attended the moving 2023 Holocaust Memorial Day ceremony at Tŷ Pawb in Wrexham, organised by the Association of Voluntary Organisations in Wrexham, when the theme chosen by the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust was 'ordinary people'. As you stated, the theme this year is the 'fragility of freedom', reminding us of the slow and subtle erosion of freedoms that create the circumstances that allow genocide to take place. It also urges us not to take our freedoms for granted and to be mindful of our own responsibility in defending and strengthening freedoms in our communities. Would you therefore join me in endorsing the recent statement by Pope Francis that
'Saturday, 27 January, is International Holocaust Remembrance Day. May the remembrance and condemnation of that horrific extermination of millions of Jews and people of other faiths, which took place in the first half of the last century, help everyone not to forget that the logic of hatred and violence can never be justified, because it denies our very humanity.'
I'll close by quoting how he closed, in encouraging, as he did, us all to pray for peace across the world. Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr and thank you very much, Mark Isherwood, for your contribution to this statement, and it is an important contribution. As you say, we have a duty to stand up against hate and persecution, and commemorating the Holocaust is important to ensure that we'll never forget how divisive hateful narratives can be and what can happen if people in communities are targeted and dehumanised because of who they are. Thank you for sharing your experiences and your learning as a result of your visits and your engagement. Of course, the Holocaust didn't happen overnight; it began with the gradual erosion of human rights, and, of course, this divisive rhetoric against people who were different or perceived to be different to others. And it was very powerful on Friday—and I know others who were there on Friday and, indeed, last Wednesday, when we had an event in the Pierhead building—the fact that we had contributions during the prayers from Disability Wales, Stonewall Cymru and the Romani Cultural and Arts Company—Isaac Blake also participated. It was really important it came through, that strong message of the erosion of human rights and that rhetoric against people, which of course the Holocaust drove out with stigma and hatred.

Jane Hutt AC: So, I think the investment that we’ve made has been important. I’ve only mentioned some of the events that took place over the weekend, and some more to come in terms of our support for community events and the 'light the darkness' national moment. We’ve got some good other reports of what happened from the community engagement, for example, Tredegar Town Council lighting candles at Aneurin Bevan memorial stones, Tredegar—the Member Alun Davies may be mentioning that—also, just recognising voluntary services, Glamorgan Voluntary Services adding information to their website, e-bulletins; the office of the future generations commissioner arranging a webinar on 18 December about Holocaust Memorial Day to the future generations department; Love Your Library Monmouth group—. There are many others—Neath Port Talbot standing advisory council on religion, values and ethics. And also in north Wales, you mentioned the police—North Wales Police had marked the day as well. And Bangor University held an event in Powis Hall main arts building, College Road in Bangor.
But I do want to turn to the important points about education particularly and the role of the Holocaust Educational Trust. Those of us who attended either the event last week in the Pierhead building, or indeed on Friday, will have heard from the young people, the young ambassadors, who gave such important contributions at those events. We have to be so proud—we are so proud—of our young people when they speak up about their experiences. And I just want to make the point about the role of the Holocaust Educational Trust, which of course we’ve been funding, as I said, since 2008, and the participants learning about pre-war Jewish life and the former Nazi death and concentration camp, Auschwitz-Birkenau, before considering the contemporary relevance of the Holocaust. They become ambassadors, and they indeed were, the young people who spoke last Wednesday, and indeed on Friday—such strong, powerful ambassadors inspiring us, and inspiring them of course, the experience, to share their knowledge in their communities. I think one of the ambassadors was talking about sharing it in the primary schools. Of course, the fact is that they're learning, they're understanding, and meeting, indeed, as they did, some of the survivors—the power that that had for those young people.
I think this does reflect in our curriculum, has been recognised, because diversity is now a cross-cutting theme in the Curriculum for Wales, and this does help and equip our young people to understand and respect their own and each other’s histories, cultures and traditions—and that’s very important, that our new curriculum does reflect that true diversity of the population and learners—and understand how diversity is shaped.
Just finally, also, I want to comment on your point that has been made particularly about addressing hate crime, and this is something that I spoke of in my statement, but just to again reflect on the fact that it is important to recognise that the issue around hate crime—. We are actually the first—. The Wales Hate Support Centre is the first service of its kind in the UK to offer as well a children and young people-friendly hate crime service, and we have our Hate Hurts Wales communications campaign, but are also trying to understand ways in which we can reach out to those who are particularly affected by race hate or sexual orientation or religion hate crimes, and I’ve already commented on the focus last year.
It is important that schoolchildren learn about the wrongs and consequences of contemporary antisemitism, and I’ve mentioned the letter that I and the Minister for education sent to all headteachers, raising that awareness about antisemitism and, indeed, Islamaphobia. This is all about the ways in which we, through education, and the ways we intervene and support Holocaust Memorial Day. And the Holocaust Educational Trust can actually live up to that very important point, which I do understand, agreeing that the past informs the future. Diolch yn fawr, Mark.

Sioned Williams AS: As you reflected in your statement, Minister, at the heart of our acts of remembrance, in response to the horrors of the Holocaust, is a reflection on humanity's ability to cause such suffering to fellow humans, and also humanity's ability to remain silent in the face of such suffering. A refusal to remain silent in the face of a state's atrocities against a specific group of people, such as the Jews of Europe in the 1930s and 1940s, can require a great deal of bravery—incredible acts of personal bravery, as in the case of people such as Sophie Scholl in Nazi Germany. It also takes a great deal of political bravery on Governments' behalf to oppose the oppressive actions of powerful nations.
I'd like to quote, in this context, a tribute written for one of the most prominent philosophical minds of the twentieth century, and one of the leaders of the civil rights movement in the United States, namely Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel. The tribute is by a scholar of philosophy from Wales, W.D. Davies, and it was read by him at Rabbi Heschel's funeral in 1972. W.D. Davies was the son of a miner and his wife in Glanamman, a few miles away from where I live in the Swansea valley. He had a glittering career here and in the United States, including holding chairs at Princeton and Duke universities. And his words of tribute to a fellow scholar are particularly relevant to the act of remembrance, and its nature.

Sioned Williams AS: 'I recall once, at his home, that he referred to the silence of decent people in Germany, and elsewhere, in the presence of the monstrous and unspeakable deeds of Hitler, and spoke of the need to make public protest against such.... That he very publicly marched to Selma and very publicly opposed the Vietnam war...all this was no accident. It was his passionate reaction against the craven silence of decent people in the presence of wrong unendurable. More than one great jurist has said that it is important not only that justice be done, but that justice be seen to be done. Abraham Heschel felt that it was important not only that one protest against evil, but that one be seen to protest, even at the risk of being misinterpreted and misunderstood. That he was seen to protest was, in his mind, a necessary part of his resolve not to be guilty of a compromising silence.'

Sioned Williams AS: The Holocaust, therefore, demands that we take a stand. It calls publicly for an end to prejudice and hatred or violence on the basis of race, religion, sexuality or gender, or any characteristics that are used as grounds for oppression, injustice or limited freedoms, as grounds for causing suffering, as grounds for causing famine, as grounds for driving people from their homes, as grounds for merciless killing. I'd like to remember today those Governments that have stood against powerful nations to prevent such actions, from the second world war to this day. I'd like to remember the people who have taken a public stand against this, calling for peace and for justice.
I'd like to know, Minister, how the Welsh Government is ensuring that your act of remembrance this year is not simply a passive one. How are you pressing the UK Government to stand against oppression and violence and to call for peace and justice on these isles, and in their relations with Governments worldwide, specifically at present in thinking about the interim judgment by the International Court of Justice that there is a credible case, under the 1948 genocide convention, against the Government of Israel, and that the Palestinian population of Gaza is at genuine risk of irreparable harm?
You mentioned that the conflict in the middle east was at the forefront of your mind during the remembrance ceremony last week. How is the Welsh Government trying to tackle the increased levels of antisemitism and Islamaphobia in our communities, which have been intensified by the actions of the Government of Israel in Gaza and the Hamas attack on the citizens of Israel? Do you agree that the Westminster Government must call for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for the safe return of Israeli hostages, and that this would help to decrease tensions and, therefore, levels of hate crime in Wales? And if so, are you willing to add the Welsh Government’s weight to calls for an immediate ceasefire to achieve this?
The theme of this year’s Holocaust Memorial Day is the fragility of freedom. Do you agree, Minister, that the Welsh Government should urge the Westminster Government to respect international law, ensuring that human rights are protected without exception in Wales and the United Kingdom, and that sanctions are applied to nations that contravene conventions and international law by restricting people's freedom to have the right to life, freedom from torture and inhumane or degrading treatment, and the right to safety?
Holocaust Memorial Day is an opportunity for us to renew our commitment to safeguarding peace and human rights in today’s world. Do you agree, Minister, that we should never remain silent in the face of injustice and suffering, that a Government should not be guilty, as Rabbi Heschel said, of compromising silence—even if there is a risk that we are misunderstood and misrepresented in so doing?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. And thank you, again, for your contribution to this statement, and also for just drawing attention to the courage of people who've stood up and not stayed silent, very much following on from the point of Mark Isherwood's about agreeing that the past can inform the future. But the refusal to stay silent—. You've spoken of those people of courage across the world and in our history, and, of course, I think this also reflects back to the importance of our curriculum and the fact that developing informed and ethical citizens is about history. It's also about learning about the diversity about today's people and, actually, I'm very proud, as I'm sure the Minister is, and all of you are, that human rights is a key part of the curriculum.
But thank you for also remembering that tribute to Rabbi Joshua Heschel and making the connection to Wales with W.D. Davies. It's important, of course, and many of us recognise, that public protest is an important way in which we can express our views. It's part of our thriving democracy that we play our part in that. But I do think that the expressions of solidarity and support that we saw last Wednesday in the Pierhead building, where, across party, we were coming together and hearing not just our young people, but also the testimony and life experience of Eva Clarke, was really important.
Yes, we have acknowledged, and I did in my statement, that conflicts across the world are at the forefront of our thoughts. And, of course, just in terms of the situation in the middle east, we need a sustainable and lasting ceasefire in order to ensure that we get urgent humanitarian relief, warding off famine, and also freeing hostages, and provide the space for a sustainable ceasefire so that fighting doesn't restart. And, obviously, we acknowledge and look at the situation in terms of the international court of justice's interim ruling. But I think, just in terms of our role and the points that we make, we have to be responsible, as I said, for community cohesion, for the compassionate and caring and ethically-informed Wales that we want to see in our young people and indeed in all our citizens. And so I think it was very important that on the day of Hannukah and a very powerful event on the steps of the Senedd, the First Minister and I were also meeting with Muslim leaders as well.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, can I thank you for your statement this afternoon? In your statement you recognised the work of Pastor Michael Fryer and those at Father's House in my own constituency in Queensferry. They play an incredibly important role in making sure that we remember and we never forget the Holocaust and those tragedies across the world. And they play an important role in making sure that our future generations never forget.
Minister, you said the event over the weekend was supported by Mark Tami, and Carolyn and I have had the privilege of speaking there on many occasions—not just on Holocaust Memorial Day, but right across the year. I wonder if you could join me in thanking Pastor Michael and the team at Father's House for all of their work, and perhaps talk further about how we can support these organisations, like Father's House, in the role that they do in educating and enlightening the people of Wales, year round. Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Jack Sargeant. I have acknowledged that important event that took place at Father's House Sabbath Congregation in Flintshire. I think that the important point, not only in terms of your contribution and the guest speakers who attended, but the memorial: it was a memorial that wasn't just a one-off memorial. I would certainly like to come and visit Father's House and meet the congregation, because I can see that this is imbued in everything that they do, not just on Holocaust Memorial Day.

Darren Millar AC: Minister, can I thank you for your statement? I think that it is important that Holocaust Memorial Day is marked in the Senedd in this way with a ministerial statement every year, in the same way that, on an annual basis, we mark the event in the Senedd, as was the case last week. I, of course, unfortunately, was not able to be present at that event, but I believe that Eva Clarke spoke very clearly about the impact of the Holocaust, not just on her and her immediate family, but of course on the Jewish people and all of the others who suffered at the hands of the dreadful Nazi regime in the 1930s and 1940s.
It is important that we celebrate these things locally as well, and I'm pleased that a number of events have been held around Wales remembering the Holocaust, including one that I attended over the weekend in Llandudno, where the Christian Friends of Israel in north Wales get together with the local Jewish community in order to host an annual event at which young people, old people, Holocaust survivors always take part.
I was particularly struck this year by the impact of the Lessons from Auschwitz programme on the young people who shared about their visit to Auschwitz at that particular event. I would be grateful if you could confirm the ongoing commitment of the Welsh Government to that programme, in order to ensure that many more young people can have the opportunity to become ambassadors for those who have experienced the horrors of the Holocaust, particularly at Auschwitz.
In addition to that, there was a book that was talked about at the event over the weekend by one of my constituents, Andrew Hesketh, who has written a book, Escape to Gwrych Castle. It's about the 300 Jewish refugees who came across as part of the Kindertransport programme, and were at the castle—the largest single centre of Kindertransport arrivals and refugees in the whole of the United Kingdom at the time. I didn't know that that was the case. I knew that there had been some Jews that had taken refuge at the castle during the war, but had no idea that it was the largest single centre. I would commend that book to anyone with an interest in the events of the war, the Holocaust, and indeed in the generous response of the Welsh public to those individuals in need.
Just finally, Minister, if I may, I'd like to thank those universities in Wales that have done work in trying to promote awareness of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism and have adopted it—both Bangor now and Cardiff. There is still more work to be done among our higher education institutions, and I would be grateful if you could continue to work with your colleague the Cabinet Minister for education to address those shortcomings in some parts of our education institutions across Wales. Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Darren Millar. Thank you, again. I know that you were hoping to be at—. You helped organise the powerful event last Wednesday with the cross-party group and Jenny Rathbone. It was extraordinary hearing about the life story and circumstances of Eva Clarke and her family, and also hearing from the young ambassadors.
I have mentioned many local events, but it is good that we have heard on record about the event in Llandudno, and the contribution of the young people who have benefited from—. Clearly, their whole life experience will benefit from the Holocaust Educational Trust, which we have funded since 2008—I believe I was actually the education Minister then—and I know we'll continue to fund it. It's interesting that we had an online situation during the pandemic and the Lessons from Auschwitz in-person and online project reached 1,957 students and 226 teachers from across Wales.
It is important that you've mentioned the work that we're doing in terms of the adoption of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition, which, of course, we adopted in May 2017, and the work that we continue to do with further and higher education institutions. We did write in December to all the further and higher education institutions to ask them, for example, to ensure that they're supporting students, looking at issues, learning about antisemitism and, indeed, Islamaphobia and discrimination. And thank you, also, for reporting on some of the developments that have taken place in higher education. It is something where the Minister has been very clear about respecting universities' autonomy, but keen to adopt the IHRA definition, which is an important matter of principle. And they must carry out their functions in full recognition of their obligations under the public sector equality duty as well.

Joyce Watson AC: I've got five speakers and we're over time, so if I could respectfully ask people to keep to time, I know that you all want to speak and we all want to hear you. Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Perhaps the most frightening thing about the Holocaust was how easily it was allowed to happen. It wasn't only fanatics who rounded Jewish people up or expected them to sew stars of David into their clothes. It was made possible by the terrifying indifference of the people who chose to look the other way—chose to look the other way as the lorries trundled past and the railway wagons clattered through the night. We can't just passively remember the Holocaust, we have to sear into our souls an awareness of the hideous easiness with which the murder of millions was carried out—the Jewish, disabled, gay lives ended because people decided they didn't deserve to exist.
Minister, I'm deeply troubled by the rise in antisemitic attacks that have been prompted, it seems, by what's happening in the middle east. It is incomprehensible to me how anyone could blame Jewish people or expect them to be answerable for what's happening on another continent. Jewish people living in Wales are our brothers and our sisters; they are a people of peace. Would you join me, Minister, in reaffirming this point and extending a hand of friendship and solidarity to them?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you. Diolch yn fawr, Delyth Jewell, for those very important comments. We're extremely concerned about reports of increases in hate crime targeting Jewish communities, and we do encourage members of those communities to report any hate incidents. They can be reported to the Wales Hate Support Centre, as I've said, or by contacting the police. We are actually monitoring any spikes with the Wales Hate Support Centre, and I have to say, any spikes in the reporting of antisemitic and, indeed, Islamaphobic hate crime at this time, because we need to ensure that we understand the impact of this. Again, the Welsh Government stands with the Jewish community in condemning the hatred expressed by individuals who seek to create that climate of fear, aiming to fragment our communities. But we will overcome that with statements and contributions and the commitment of the Welsh Government, as I've outlined today.

Alun Davies AC: The 'fragility of freedom' is a remarkably powerful statement. The fragility of humanity was something that I reflected upon a few weeks ago in Dachau concentration camp, where you look around the normality of an industrial estate on the edge of Munich and reflect upon what happened there a lifetime ago, and the fragility of humanity that allowed that to happen. And, of course, we all know that Dachau wasn't simply the consequence of Goebbels's words in November 1938, spoken just a few miles away in the old town hall in the centre of Munich. It was the consequence of hatred, hatred that had been driven by a Government intolerant of people and who sought to blame others for the issues facing Germany at that time—the fragility of civilisation.
Jenny Rathbone, Llyr Huws Gruffydd, Darren Millar and I walked through Yad Vashem in Jerusalem some years ago. We walked through the history of the Holocaust, and it didn't start in Dachau, it didn't start on Kristallnacht; it started with individual acts of hatred and intolerance. I'm glad the education Minister is in his place this afternoon, and I hope that, as we teach children tolerance and humanity, we teach them the consequences of inhumanity and intolerance. We all know that if we look on social media this evening, we will see the fragility of freedom, the fragility of humanity, and we will see the fragility of the common humanity that unites us all. I hope that all of us, in remembering the events of the Holocaust, will also remember that we need to call out hatred when we see it in the world today.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr. Your statement stands on its own strength: the fragility of freedom; your experiences, as well, are on the record. They're important, and we respect them and your engagement. I just want to mention one point, as well as the curriculum and what we're doing in education, we do have our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'; it is providing a cross-Government framework that will embed anti-racism into our education system. Teachers are telling me about how they're learning just by learning to learn this with their pupils. I think the fact that that plan includes goals and actions to tackle antisemitism, Islamaphobia, including our ongoing support for victims of hate crime, will have a powerful influence, we hope.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Last week, Minister, I was honoured to stand in the place of Darren Millar at the Holocaust Memorial Day event in the Pierhead, and I must commend the Member for Clwyd West for the work that he's undertaken as a Member here in advocating for Holocaust memorial and the work he's done with the Holocaust Educational Trust. Listening to Holocaust survivor Eva Clarke BEM and her powerful testimony, it, indeed, was one of the most important events that I've been privileged enough to be involved with in my time in the Senedd.
Another important event in my life was when, as a pupil of Ysgol Bro Gwaun, I visited Auschwitz, and that is an experience that lives with me to this day. It's incredibly difficult to put into words what one experiences when they visit Auschwitz. One thing that I heard and saw repeatedly during my visit to Auschwitz, when I visited the Jewish ghetto in Krakow and the memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe in Berlin, was the phrase by George Santayana:
'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'
So, let us remember the Holocaust for what it was: the murder, the systematic eradication of 6 million Jews, two thirds of Europe's Jewish population. But have we truly remembered the past if the cancer that is antisemitism is still far too common in our country and around the world? Have we really remembered the past if Jews continue to be targeted in conspiracy theories and painted as scapegoats for issues that are not their fault? So, Minister, in remembering the words of George Santayana, how is the Welsh Government helping to remember the evil of the Holocaust and the persecution of Jews to ensure that today's and future generations are not condemned to repeat it? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Samuel Kurtz. Thank you for the role that you played last Wednesday, and, indeed, again, I repeat and recognise the important contribution that was made, the testimony by Eva Clarke. Your visit to Auschwitz, as everybody has expressed the impact it has had—. I think I've already spoken about our commitment as a Welsh Government. Supporting Holocaust Memorial Day and the Holocaust Educational Trust, our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', and, indeed, our Wales centre for tackling hate crime, I think are all indications of our commitment to this. I think it is important, acting Presiding Officer, that we do spend our time, we do listen to all the contributions today, because it's is not just today that we’re remembering the impact of this, but every day.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you to Darren Millar for getting Eva Clarke to come here and give us such an extraordinary account of her mother’s ability to survive.
On Sunday, I attended a performance of 'Stumbling Stones', which on the one hand was a vibrant group of musicians called Klezmer-ish, which includes Thomas Verity, the principal clarinet in the Welsh National Opera. They performed a mixture of klezmer, Sephardic, Yiddish and tango music, a wonderful celebration of both what was lost and what has survived of the vibrancy, joy and poignancy of Jewish culture. It was mixed with the story of my friend Julia Nelki’s German-Jewish family, who found, on the one hand, asylum here, as well as those who were sent to the extermination camps.
As the double bass player said, it’s not only about remembering the past; it is about exploring the relevance of the past to the present and the future. So, it was extremely important that 'Stumbling Stones' included the participation of a Malawi asylum seeker who’s been living in England for the last seven years and still waiting for refugee status, and Qais Attalla, a Palestinian from Gaza who’s lost 40 members of his family in the last couple of months. Together, the combination of this wonderful celebration of Jewish culture and a recognition of the mistakes we are destined to repeat if we don’t understand was a really powerful moment. I want to bring this performance to south Wales, and with Thomas Verity’s help, I hope we will bring it here, maybe to the Merthyr synagogue, and maybe I’ll be tapping up the Welsh Government for some money.
But this is the sort of thing we need to do; not just to repeat the stories, but to also give it a modern relevance. I’m so glad that you have chosen, with the Holocaust Educational Trust, 'fragility of freedom', because that is absolutely the case.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone. That’s an important contribution in itself, because you are talking about the impact culture can have on us in terms of that experience you had with 'Stumbling Stones', the contributions that were made at that concert, but also to link that to the contributions from the sanctuary seeker from Malawi, and indeed the experience of the Palestinian who was there. This is about us working together cross-culturally, and learning.
I actually was able to attend at the weekend the film—and I was going to mention this in response to Darren Millar—One Life, about the amazing work of Sir Nicholas Winton, and if anyone hasn’t managed to see that film in terms of the Kindertransport from Prague in those last days before the war broke out—. I think we must recognise that culture is crucial to this as well.

Joyce Watson AC: And our last speaker on this is Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister, for your important statement. As you say, it is inherent on all of us, if we’re to create a safer, more equal nation, to call out hate, bigotry and the evils that are inflicted in their name, and never let the suffering that they cause be forgotten. One really good example of this is provided by St John Baptist Church in Wales High School in Aberdare, who hold multiple Holocaust memorial assemblies in the week leading up to memorial day. I believe the school has been running these for 20 years since they visited Auschwitz and met a Holocaust survivor, to whom they pledged they would do all they could to ensure we never forget.
Ms Bell, her colleagues and students do a tremendous job, also inviting in representatives from the local community to these assemblies, and I’m sure they would welcome someone from the Welsh Government maybe attending to see what they do, and perhaps finding out how similar examples of best practice can be promoted across Wales. It’s good to hear about the increasing numbers of Welsh schools taking part in the Holocaust Educational Trust's Lessons from Auschwitz project. By my calculations, though, that still represents only about one in three schools in Wales. I appreciate the project is run on a first come, first served basis, but has any work been done to identify barriers that may prevent schools taking part, and, if so, what can be done to overcome them?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much. I think this needs to be fed back to the Holocaust Educational Trust, and, indeed, the community support worker who we funded to help reach out, and we'll do that. I'm very conscious of the fact that I got some indications of contributions and ways in which this was recognised and celebrated in terms of the richness of those young people's contributions, but marking the horror of the Holocaust. For example, in terms of 'fragility of freedom', I see Bedwas High School also have pupils taking part in this in terms of that focus. But I'd like to follow it up in terms of, Vikki Howells, your school, which has obviously now embedded this into the curriculum and learning for all the pupils of that school.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you. I know that we've overrun, but I thought it was important that we extended that debate.

6. Statement by the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd: BlasCymru/TasteWales

Joyce Watson AC: We're now moving on to item 6, a statement by the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales on BlasCymru/TasteWales.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Chair. I am pleased to update Senedd Members on BlasCymru/TasteWales 2023. The Welsh Government launched the event back in 2017 and it has taken place every two years since then, even during the COVID-19 pandemic. The theme of the event reflected the challenges the industry continues to face, but also its greatest strengths: 'Powerful together: From challenge to success. The role of resilience, innovation, and optimism.'
I'm grateful to the guest speakers who joined us. Shelagh Hancock, the chief executive officerof First Milk, presented on the challenges for agricultural and food businesses and outlined her own organisation's approach to sustainability. Chris Hayward from the Institute of Grocery Distribution also shared a wide range of fascinating retail and consumer insights for 2024.
At the heart of BlasCymru is brokerage between Welsh food businesses and major domestic and international buyers. We believe Government can play an active role in supporting food businesses in Wales to develop their credentials in terms of sustainability in ways that help to make them an attractive prospect for major buyers in the UK and abroad. This not only helps the Welsh economy, but in promoting sustainable and responsible business practices, we promote Wales's wider well-being at the same time.
At BlasCymru, we are able to draw in those priority international and domestic buyers to travel from across the UK and the world to the International Convention Centre Wales in Newport because of the reputation for excellence amongst the Welsh food businesses who showcase there. Over the two days, Wales welcomed 276 trade buyers, including 30 international buyers from 11 countries. A total of 122 established Welsh food and drink businesses took part in the event, accompanied by 15 rising stars—new business start-ups in Wales who have developed their businesses in the last 12 months.
The brokerage is carefully scheduled, with planning around those meetings taking place for many months in advance of the event itself. At the event, 2,100 bilateral meetings were held between food businesses and major buyers. On the latest available information provided by attendees at the event, the brokerage meetings generated confirmed and potential sales of over £38 million. This is the highest total for a BlasCymru event and will increase over time as conversations continue to bear fruit.
Given the bleak economic context we face, this is an extraordinary vote of confidence in the Welsh food sector. In fact, the Welsh food and drink sector has generated a larger percentage in export growth than comparable regions of the UK. The success of the sector within domestic markets is also incredibly positive. A recent retailer audit found the number of stock-keeping units across 23 Welsh stores had increased from 1,250 to 1,966—an increase of 57 per cent since 2019. The event included exhibition zones to raise awareness of the support available from the Welsh Government and other sources. Welsh food businesses were also provided with the opportunity to exhibit new products, and 203 new products were on show at the event, demonstrating world-class innovation and quality.
Wales has for many years been very successful in securing protected food status for products. Protected status recognises and guarantees a product's unique characteristics and authenticity. There were 14 product ranges protected by the geographical indication scheme showcased at the event—all fine ingredients from the mountains, marshes and pastures of Wales. These amazing products rely on a healthy natural environment, and in protecting these food products we help to secure a positive future for our communities too, reflecting the importance we place on landscape and culture for our well-being. Examples include PGI Welsh lamb and PGI Welsh beef, as well as regional brands such Gower salt marsh and Cambrian hills lamb. A special edition of National Geographic magazine focused on these protected foods, precisely because of the sense of place that our protected food products convey. I was encouraged by the level of media coverage, with 24 national and regional journalists in attendance, and significant coverage across all channels, helping to spread the word about sustainable Welsh produce.
BlasCymru is the centrepiece of our vision for the food and drink industry in Wales. The goal on which this vision is based is
'to create a strong and vibrant Welsh food and drink sector with a global reputation for excellence, having one of the most environmentally and socially responsible supply chains in the world.'
We see fair work, environmental sustainability and economic success for the sector as being inherently linked. The success of BlasCymru demonstrates this working in practice. The event helps us to encourage more food businesses to engage in those dedicated support programmes to help them enhance social and environmental outcomes, to promote skills and employability, and to develop their response to the climate and nature emergencies.
One of the most important ways we can achieve this is reflected in the event's theme of 'powerful together', and that's through our cluster networks. The network brings together suppliers, academia, and Government around common interests. Our food and drink sustainability cluster, for example, includes 100 business members and 30 support organisations. By providing one-on-one support for businesses seeking B Corp accreditation, we support delivery of the social benefits for Welsh communities, and, in doing so, help the businesses themselves secure new market opportunities.
At the event, we presented a series of new digital tools and networks to help businesses increase their sustainability. This included our new sustainability and decarbonisation training programme and an online food and drink sustainability toolkit for businesses. It also included our climate change e-hub, which uses data we've brought together from our support programmes to enable businesses to benchmark themselves against those that have been at the forefront in making sustainability work within their supply chains. The event was an opportunity to engage businesses in the support available through Project Helix, our flagship food innovation scheme, which provides tailored support to businesses across all areas of their production process and supply chain. Since its inception in 2016, Project Helix has assisted 703 enterprises, sustaining 3,600 jobs, and creating 683 new jobs. The overall financial impact to the food and drink industry is assessed to be in the region of £355 million.
The success of the latest BlasCymru event is a huge credit to the impressive achievements of the Welsh food sector. It also reflects the importance of Government having an industrial strategy, for the benefits not only to businesses but for the wider community as well. Our investment in BlasCymru/TasteWales and all of the support programmes we offer is being repaid many times over. Just as importantly, the fact the Government has stepped in to take an active role means we are in a position to promote wider benefits to the people of Wales as well.
We believe the BlasCymru events are a living example of how it is possible, by working together with others, for Government to promote economic growth and wider well-being through pursuing our core values of sustainability and fair work. These values are not contrary to that success—they are the basis of it. Diolch.

Joyce Watson AC: Samuel Kurtz, spokesperson for the Conservatives.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Diolch, Llywydd dros dro. I would like to thank the Minister for bringing forward this statement today. I am pleased to see and, of course, welcome the value that the WelshGovernment places on our fantastic Welsh food and drink industry. I know this statement is not only a time to reflect on the industry as a whole, but also a time to reflect on the value of BlasCymru to our nation and our exporting ability and networking opportunities for industry stakeholders. I know it is seen as a flagship trade event of the Welsh food and drink industry as the largest of its kind, where we see Welsh food and drink producers, national and international buyers and food industry professionals come together in one forum. BlasCymru 2023, as we've heard, gave over 120 Welsh food and drink businesses the opportunity to meet and ignite discussions with over 270 trade buyers, and saw the unveiling of 200 new products. I know that the previous biennial BlasCymru event was held in 2021, and since then we have seen huge progress across the UK's export sales for the food and drink sector. So, Minister, whilst we note that an impressive and promising number of stakeholders attend and engage in meetings of BlasCymru every other year, I wonder if you could outline how the success of these functions are measured in terms of output and cost-effectiveness.

Samuel Kurtz AS: Despite prolonged and drawn-out criticisms from this Government of our leave of the EU, the value of our Welsh food and drink exports to the EU reached record highs in 2022, when they hit £594 million—a £130 million increase from 2021. Alongside this, the industry was also able to bolster its non-EU exports in the same year, when they reached £203 million—up from £176 million the year previous. But, Minister, what I find most notable when looking at the data on our exports, which have notably been really promising, is that the highest value export category for Welsh food and drink in 2022 was meat and meat-related products, totalling in at a value of £265 million. This is a 42 per cent increase from 2021, and something that, as we know, is down to the relentless hard work from our Welsh farmers and our families. No farmers, no food. And while it is great to see both you and your Government support and promote our food and drink sector, it will be seen as somewhat garish in the light of the damning analysis on food production that the sustainable farming scheme would have. Alongside a slashed budget, which clearly does not support the sector as we need it to, Welsh Government's commissioned impact assessment highlights, quite bluntly, the negative impact the sustainable farming scheme would have. The modelling has predicted a 122,000 reduction in Welsh livestock units, which, in effect, is a 10.8 per cent reduction in Welsh livestock numbers; a 11 per cent cut in labour on Welsh farms, which is the equivalent of losing 5,500 jobs; and, finally, a £125 million hit to output from the sector, and a loss of £199 million to farm businesses income. That's an income loss of 85 per cent. So, rightfully so, NFU Cymru have commented on the fact this data is quite frankly shocking, and it is utterly contradictory to the sentiments of the SFS consultation of 'keep farmers farming'. So, with this in mind, Minister, I wonder if you could lay out how this Welsh Government aims to continue to support the Welsh food and drink sector, moving into 2025, considering the bleak backdrop of budget cuts and uncertainty that has been forced upon our farming sector. Yet, it is our farmers that are one of the key components in ensuring the survival of the food and drink industry. And given now the Welsh Government are scratching around with what to do with Gilestone Farm following an almighty mess-up, perhaps you could use the farm as a demonstrator for the sustainable farming scheme if you're that confident in the scheme's success.
Now, whilst we all understand the difficulty of the financial pressures of not only this Government, but other Governments around the world, our Welsh food and drink industry must be supported as an economic, cultural and societal priority. We're not only talking about Welsh produce, but our Welsh consumers who, according to the NFU's research, which I've raised before in this Chamber only last week, demonstrated that 82 per cent of people support the Welsh Government in providing financial support to farmers to produce food.
So, finally, Minister, one domestic area that our food and drink sector aligns very closely with, especially across my constituency of Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, is the tourism industry. I'd like to ask, therefore, what actions the Welsh Government is taking to ensure that both sectors benefit from one another, so we utilise all that Wales has to offer effectively across different sectors. Our Welsh food and drink industry is intrinsically linked with our farmers, our culture, our heritage and our history. Whilst I wholly share your ambitions for BlasCymru and the wider food and drink industry here in Wales—and I congratulate all stakeholders for some fantastic progress over the last few years—to achieve its full potential it cannot have the rug pulled from under its feet with an agricultural policy that undermines sustainable food production. Diolch, Llywydd dros dro.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I would certainly agree with that last point, and I can assure you that that's not going to happen. I mean, the analysis that you referred to—and I did have a conversation with NFU Cymru around it—as I say, is very old data, and there will be further economic analysis ahead of the sustainable farming scheme's final design next summer.
But to go back to BlasCymru, I welcome your very positive comments around it. As you say, it's a biennial event; this was the fourth BlasCymru, and every one just gets better and better. And certainly, the data we've received, and I mentioned in my oral statement, is that £38 million of new business—. I was at a bakery, actually, in Ken Skates's constituency a couple of weeks ago and they were talking about the conversations they'd had, and they were still following them through. I go back to what I was talking about, the brokerage: there's a huge amount of thought put into that brokerage, and the people that our food producers meet during BlasCymru. So, I think it was 28 buyers that this particular company had met over the two days. Now, if you think how you would reach 28 buyers—that would take a huge amount of work for a very small business to be able to go out there, meet those buyers, have those conversations. So, for me, it's the brokerage that I mentioned—it's absolutely at the heart of BlasCymru—but I've just seen it grow and grow over the four events.
You've got to try and keep it fresh, of course, and do different things. So, this year, we moved from the multiple individual showcases, for instance, that we'd had previously, and we had three thematically integrated zones, and we had guided tours of the brokerage as well, and all the produce was on display, including the new products, of which there were over 200. We've also had a very extensive seminar programme, because, again, for businesses to come along to BlasCymru, they're giving up their time, particularly if they're a small company, which so many of our food and drink producers are. These new innovations were really well received, and it's good to be able to build on those.
You referred to exports, and I do think we punch above our weight in relation to exports, but if you look at the countries that our exports tend to go to from a food and drink point of view, France is now the highest value destination for Welsh food and drink exports, at £150 million. Other top destinations include the Republic of Ireland, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany, so there's a bit of a theme there—our closest neighbours, of course, are part of the European Union.
You're quite right about meat and meat preparations: that makes up 33 per cent of the food and drink export value. And that's followed by cereal and cereal preparations, with a 20 per cent share of all food and drink exports. I absolutely agree with you: no farmers, no food. It's really important that we continue to support our farmers, and as I think I said to you last week in my oral questions, the analysis, or the survey that NFU Cymru came forward with, didn't surprise me at all. I absolutely understand that the people of Wales accept that we have to continue to support our farmers.

Joyce Watson AC: I call on Llyr Gruffydd, spokesperson on behalf of Plaid Cymru.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you, and thank you, Minister, for your statement. Pretty impressive figures, I would have to say, in terms of the contribution that the sector makes, and of course there's no doubt that the food and drink sector makes a significant economic, social, environmental and cultural contribution to well-being in Wales. And the themes, I think, of resilience, innovation and optimism are very welcome, although I would echo concerns that maybe optimism at the minute is difficult, given that the whole landscape of support, not directly for the wider food and drink sector, but particularly for primary producers, is looking challenging. I would reiterate the concerns that were made by the NFU today in a statement that they put out asking Government to reconsider a number of aspects of the proposals, but we can come back to that when you give us a statement on the sustainable farming scheme.
I just wanted to pick out, you say in the statement:
'At the heart of BlasCymru is brokerage between Welsh food businesses and major domestic and international buyers. We believe Government can play an active role in supporting food businesses'.
But, of course, we are facing a period now of diminished resources, so to what extent are those diminished resources going to rein that influence in and constrict, maybe, the role that Government can play in helping to grow the sector? What assurances can you give us that potential cuts will not stifle growth that we've seen in the recent period? You say that your investment in BlasCymruand all of the support programmes you offer is being repaid many times over. Well, of course it is, but the less that's put in upfront, the less that comes back out in terms of return on investment.
I heard you, in evidence to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, when you were being scrutinised on your budget, mention that maybe your approach would have to change and you'd have to look at different ways of approaching things. You mentioned the possibility, for example, of holding virtual trade and export events. Now, I'm not sure that you can taste virtual Welsh cheese, or wash it down with virtual Welsh real ale. It feels like a bit of a cheap imitation. I'm to be convinced that that's the best approach, or even a worthwhile approach—you can persuade me otherwise, I'm sure. So, to what extent are we really going to be utilising some of those means, as opposed to, maybe, some of the other means that have proven themselves in recent years? And, of course, does that mean that we will have to increasingly piggyback Welsh efforts onto UK Government initiatives? And if that is the case, then how do we, within that environment, protect the integrity of the Welsh brand and the Welsh dragon?
You spoke quite a bit, you elaborated quite a bit, about skills. Well, how are we therefore ensuring, in this climate, that there will be a pipeline of skills coming through? A number of training programmes have been name-checked in your statement—are those being protected in future? And can you give us an assurance—? Because, obviously, food impinges on a number of ministerial portfolios here: it's economy as much as it is tourism, as much as it is health and other things. So, tell us about the cross-Government working that might be happening, because we, in this economic environment, need to make every £1 work as hard as possible, and having a cross-Government approach would, I think, help keep the sector on the positive trajectory that it's on.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. So, you raised a few questions and points there; I will try to answer them all. I think you're right about optimism, it is really difficult. There are so many challenges, and the challenges seem to have come on one after the other, don't they, over the past few years? And, obviously, the challenge of the Welsh Government budget being worth £1.3 billion less than when it was set, back in 2021, is massive, and we've all had to take cuts and, as you know, my portfolio has had a cut, and food and drink is part of my portfolio, and, unfortunately—we're going through draft budget scrutiny at the moment—it's likely that that part of the portfolio will obviously have to take its share of cuts.
One thing I would want to protect is BlasCymru. So, there won't be one this next financial year, so, obviously, that won't have an impact. But there will be an impact on trade development visits et cetera, but I hope it will just be for a year. I hope that there will be more money next year, to be able to pick that up to the level that we've been doing it. It's also good, I think, to refresh. So, for instance, we always have a presence at Gulfood in Dubai—we always have a number of Welsh food and drink companies there. So, it's really important that you listen to those companies to hear what the return on investment is, because that's how you monitor it. So, for me, Blas is absolutely our flagship event. It's not cheap; it's the most expensive event that, as a Government, we fund. And, obviously, we don't get anything back—it's our food and drink. But when you hear £38 million of new orders and new business and potential business—. And it's just great to walk around that brokerage and see those conversations. You've probably heard me say before—it's based on speed dating, and they all get so long, and the buyers say, 'You know you've got that time with that person and you make the most of it', and you just would not be able to have that number of contacts over a period of time. So, I would certainly protect BlasCymru, because, for me, the return on investment is so significant.
I hear what you say about virtuals, but it's actually the food and drink companies that have been telling me that they do think that is worth while. And, you know, cheap imitation is probably right—as you say, you can't taste Welsh food and drink. However, if they're telling us it's worth while, that doesn't cost very much. So, I think we would continue to do those, particularly while we're so constrained with budgets.
I've never done much with the UK Government and their—. Obviously, they have their union jack on all their 'Best is' whatever. I'm really passionate about making sure that our Welsh food and drink, which is so clearly labelled, as you say, with the dragon et cetera, that we protect that. And I think we can continue to do that. We're seeing more large retailers, more large supermarkets—. You very rarely go into a supermarket in Wales and don't see a few items of Welsh food and drink, and it's certainly important that we continue to do that.
I attended the Culinary Association of Wales awards last Wednesday night back in the International Convention Centre Wales, and it was really good. There, you have the senior chef of Wales, the junior chef of Wales and other skills as well, but to see the work that they're doing with our young people—. Some of them are very, very young and it's not an easy job working in the kitchens and producing this amazing food. But it was so good to see the enthusiasm and we want to do all we can to encourage. This is one of the biggest sectors, obviously, in Wales. It employs 0.25 million people from farm to fork, as you know, and our restaurants and hospitality sector. So, it is really important that we do continue, and, while at BlasCymru, there was a group of apprentices who came along to see what was on offer, and I managed to grab 10 minutes with them, and just the enthusiasm they had for the sector was great. And again, it's part of that vision for the food and drink industry that we have.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Jack Sargeant AC: Minister, we shouldn't underestimate the role you have played as Minister in the success of BlasCymru. I think it's important to recognise that today. I don't think you'll be surprised, Minister, as the chair of the cross-party group on beer and pubs, that I'll be focusing my short contribution on the role of the brewing industry in Wales. We've had many a conversation about how our unique brewing industry—which is now globally recognised as being of an excellent standard, and rightly so, but—we've had a conversation a number of times about how our Welsh culture and the success of the sporting teams can play a vital part in promoting Cymru's brewing industry to the world. So, I just wonder: whether that's through BlasCymru or other avenues, can you outline how the Welsh Government can support further promoting our brewing industry in these forums? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you for that. One of the things that I really wanted to do with the first BlasCymru back in 2017 was bring the world to Wales, and I think we've done that. The team of officials who work on this did a brilliant job, and they've just built on that success year on year now. As I say, we've now had four. During the COVID pandemic, obviously the number of international buyers coming over dropped and it will take a little while to build that up again, but we did see, as I say, 11 countries—. Buyers from 11 countries came to this year's BlasCymru, and I think that's really to be welcomed. We also had the BBC Food and Farming Awards come and film during BlasCymru, which again I think was another feather in our cap, and it was good to see the coverage that we had in relation to that.
As you say, the drink sector is so important, and I mentioned about our cluster networks, which I think—. We only do it within the food and drink part of the portfolio but I think the clusters really work very well, where you have academia, you have suppliers, you have Government all working together for that one purpose. Tonight—I'm sure there are a few Members in the Chamber who will be there—the drinks cluster is meeting and we're launching the beers and spirits strategy going forward, and I think that will help us as well with our exports.
You mentioned global events, and I know we had a discussion in the Chamber about the Rugby World Cup that was held in Japan and how you couldn't buy Wrexham Lager in Wrexham—you could only buy it in Japan, because they couldn't fly it out quickly enough. And it's really important that we look at those events that have that global coverage and be part of that. Certainly, as we grow our food and drink sector, there are more and more companies who want to be part of those global events and we'll be very happy to support them.

Ken Skates AC: Minister, thank you so much for your statement today. It is fantastic to see the value of the food sector to the Welsh economy, and the way it provides so many work opportunities for people up and down Wales. I'd also echo the comments from Jack Sargeant about the passion that you show as Minister and the support that you give our food producers day in, day out.
Just a few questions, Minister. First of all, have you noticed any emerging trends regarding tastes in food? Secondly, would you agree that with, every day, a new restaurant receiving awards in Wales, the restaurants of Wales, the hospitality sector, have a vital role to play in promoting food production and highlighting the quality of food produced here in Wales? And finally, in this area Coleg Cambria do a magnificent job in providing skills training for young people in food preparation and hygiene. Would you take this opportunity to congratulate and thank all of those skills providers who do such a magnificent job to give opportunities to young people in this sector? Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Ken, for those comments and questions. I absolutely agree with you, and, again, going back to the culinary awards I was at last Wednesday, which was run by one of the providers of skills here in Wales, Arwyn Watkins said that restaurants now in Wales are probably missing a trick if they're not using Welsh food and drink and displaying it very clearly on the menus that they're using Welsh food and drink, because it is such an important sector, and the provenance of the food and drink is becoming so much more important. Consumers want it, people visiting restaurants want it, so it's really important that they don't miss that trick.
It was great to see—. I mentioned the senior and the junior chefs of Wales, but there were also awards for the way that hygiene was carried out when preparing food. So, the judges—. I think it was a three-day event where the judges had been walking round and watching how the chefs prepared the food, so it wasn't just about the cooking of the food and how it tasted, it was about the way that it was prepared. I think, going back to that skills question, it's really important that our young people, or all people, have those skills as well in preparation for when they go into the sector.
I had lunch at Coleg Cambria, at the restaurant at Coleg Cambria in my own constituency of Wrexham, just before Christmas, where, as you say, the students serve the food, they wait on the tables, they cook the food, they do everything, and it was so good to see the amount of Welsh food and drink that was on display. The manager was very proud. He took me round the back to make sure I could see just how much Welsh food and drink was on display, which was just brilliant. And as you say, there are lots of providers across Wales who do that, and I'd like to congratulate them all.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I'm suddenly very hungry.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Thank you, Minister.

7. Debate: The Welsh Language Commissioner’s Annual Report 2022-23

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Heledd Fychan.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The next item is a debate on the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report 2022-23, and I call on the Minister for the Welsh language to move the motion. Jeremy Miles.

Motion NDM8463 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Welsh Language Commissioner’s Annual Report 2022-23.

Motion moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd. It's a pleasure to open this debate today and to ask you to note the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report for the financial year 2022-23.
The report takes us on a journey through the varied work of the commissioner over the reporting period. It notes the highlights of what has been achieved in areas such as ensuring fairness and rights for Welsh speakers, influencing legislation and policy, increasing use of the Welsh language in private organisations and charities, and the work on place names.
It's good to see real examples in the report of Welsh language services that have improved thanks to the intervention and support of the commissioner, for example, improving telephone services by county councils, bodies' websites and awareness of the Welsh language in the health sector. I'm pleased that the commissioner's work of regulating standards is making a difference and is providing more opportunities for people to use the Welsh language.
The annual report also lists work that has been done to influence policy, and the role that the commissioner plays in that regard is important. I'm grateful to her for responding to consultations on policies and new Bills to remind us in the Government of what we can do to assist the Welsh language to prosper across our whole body of work. It's important that we are reminded that we need to mainstream considerations of 'Cymraeg 2050' from the outset in developing policy. The input of the commissioner in developing legislation such as the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act 2022 and the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023 has led to positive improvements for the benefit of the Welsh language.
I am proud of the progress that we've made on the Welsh language in the past year. We launched a consultation on a White Paper for proposals for the Welsh education Bill, which is a core part of implementing our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. The new Welsh in education strategic plans of local authorities became operational. We invested in late immersion provision to provide an opportunity for more children to become part of our Welsh language education system. The Welsh in education workforce plan was published. We funded a pilot project to support local authorities in the south-east to promote Welsh-medium education. We've also funded the Urdd to re-establish the youth theatre. We published a new 'More than just words'. We published the Welsh communities housing plan, which relates to housing policy, community development, the economy and linguistic planning. The Commission for Welsh-speaking Communitieswas launched, and we also invested in a variety of community projects through the Perthyn programme.
In looking to the future, we will implement the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru and bring more organisations under the auspices of the standards, turning next to public organisations that don't currently come under the standards, and housing associations.
The commission has already achieved a great deal of work with businesses and charities. Eighty-six organisations have joined the Welsh Offer scheme, and 190 people have attended training or workshops that were held by the commissioner's office.
In looking to the future, we, of course, find ourselves in a challenging financial situation. The commissioner, like her fellow commissioners and a number of other public bodies, have had to share that burden. The budget of every commissioner has received a 5 per cent cut for the next financial year, 2024-25. I have discussed the implications of this with the commissioner and I am confident that this cut won't affect her ability to undertake her core functions: to administer the standards and to safeguard people's right to use the Welsh language. I'll continue my discussions with the commissioner and I'm very grateful to Efa Gruffudd Jones for considering in positive terms how she can respond to the current financial challenges.
Recently, the commissioner has started to review ways of working to ensure that her regulatory work does have the greatest impact. I'm pleased that Efa is looking to develop a more proactive method of co-regulating during 2024. This means working more closely with the bodies that come under the auspices of the standards to identify risks to the provision of Welsh language services and to develop proactive methods to mitigate those risks.
The commissioner has written to every body subject to the standards to note the steps that she will take during 2024 to develop this method of regulating and working more closely with those bodies. I'm sure that this change will ensure that the commissioner continues to regulate effectively, and to build a constructive relationship with the bodies to increase the use of the Welsh language.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Heledd Fychan to move the amendment tabled in her name.

Amendment 1—Heledd Fychan
Add as new points at end of motion:
Notes the Commissioner's work to encourage the use of Welsh by organisations in the private sector such as the banking sector on a non-statutory basis.
Agrees that banks should be subject to statutory Welsh language standards.

Amendment 1moved.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, for your statement. Clearly, we're focusing on the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report, but it's good to be reminded of those things in the co-operation agreement, and there is reference in this report to those.
I would like to start by paying tribute to the commissioner and the active team of staff that she has. I think the fact that there have been 837 interventions—that's a significant number. And in terms of the ambitions that we have in terms of 'Cymraeg 2050', increasing usage, increasing people's rights, this is extremely important and does demonstrate the value of this work.
Of course, in presenting her report, she's also reflecting on the difficult time with the loss of Aled Roberts and the interim period in the office, and the very conscientious work of Gwenith Price until Efa Gruffudd Jones's appointment. It has been an extremely difficult time for the commissioner's office in that context, and I do think that we have seen the fruit of exceptionally important labours as the office continues its work.
Of course, we do have to reflect on the fact that there are a number of prominent things that have happened since the publication of this report, and that's why, in looking at the amendment—. Clearly, the news about HSBC came after the publication of the report,but I think it's important to note that recommendation 4 does mention specifically that the objective of targeting banks specifically to increase the use of the Welsh language is an important part of what the commissioner talks about as something that she wants to focus on in looking to the future.
So, hopefully, all parties in this Chamber are agreed on HSBC's decision, that it's disgraceful, and that all parties understand the importance of having those services through the medium of Welsh. It also demonstrates why the standards are so very important, that we can see, with companies that have been so committed and positive in the past, how quickly those services can deteriorate and disappear. And all that rubbish that we heard in terms of there being no use of the service, and so on, well, we have to also promote these services and make it easy for people to choose to use the Welsh language. And I fear, if we don't look towards expanding regulations and standards, then we will see more and more people choosing to cut service levels, which is entirely contrary to the objective that we have, not only in terms of increasing the number of Welsh speakers, but also increasing the use of the Welsh language as a day-to-day language, because there's a real threat here.
The commissioner, of course, highlights, as the Minister did, the Welsh education Bill, and she says in her foreword that the commissioner's response, as we've heard in evidence sessions, will be highlighting the need to extend Welsh-medium education and opportunities for people to become confident Welsh speakers. So, I know that she and her team will be keeping a very close eye on what we do here, and that's quite right too, that she should be challenging us. There is very important work highlighted in the report in terms of Welsh-medium education and ensuring that local authorities do proceed as they should in terms of securing equity of Welsh-medium provision. And I think the important work that we saw more recently than the period of this annual report with the children's commissioner has been extremely important in terms of demonstrating the inconsistencies there are in terms of learners with additional learning needs, in order to highlight that need for equality, wherever you live in Wales, in relation to the Welsh language.
You have referred in your response, Minister, to the budget of the Welsh Language Commissioner and that you are still in negotiations with her. Is there any particular risk that you've identified in terms of responding to this, because in terms of the number of interventions and so on, that is something that the commissioner has no control over, in terms of taking court cases forward, and so on? It also strikes me, in looking at the report, how many public bodies the commissioner has to investigate. So, is there any work being done to remind public bodies of their duties in relation to the Welsh language, so that we can reduce the number of complaints that then have to be looked at by the commissioner? It seems a total waste of resources where, in reality, these are public bodies funded by Welsh Government and then the Welsh Language Commissioner has to remind them of their duties. So, what work is ongoing in terms of that?
And in terms of the census result in 2021, what further discussions are you having with the commissioner's office to address some of those extremely concerning results? The role in terms of promotion, not just regulation, is very important, and I think that if we can release some of the commissioner's resources to focus on promotion too, then that would be a positive development. But all our public bodies need to commit, and not just with fine words, but with action on the Welsh language.

Samuel Kurtz AS: I'll start my contribution today by thanking Efa Gruffudd Jones for publishing this annual report, her first since undertaking this role on a permanent basis, and the first of many, hopefully.
I'm fortunate, like you, Minister, to be able to use the Welsh language whenever I choose, either during my working hours or socially, but not everyone is as fortunate, and we are all duty bound in this Chamber to continue with our efforts to make Wales a truly bilingual nation.
Turning to the content of the report, it's clear that the commissioner's office has had a very busy year and has been working hard to promote and safeguard our language. In my response to the previous debate in November 2022, I welcomed the commissioner's contribution to the International Association of Language Commissioners and I would be eager to know whether she has built further on that relationship, and what good practice was gleaned from that engagement.

Samuel Kurtz AS: In an evidence session to a Senedd committee, the new commissioner stated that,
'the people of Wales want to do more than just deal with public authorities through the medium of Welsh.'
I'd like to know what success there's been in delivering this ambition since those words were spoken in October 2022.
I strongly believe that we should be embracing new technology to promote and learn the language. The Duolingo app—and we've discussed this in the Chamber before—is an excellent case study. Although it's disappointing to hear that the app won't be updating the Welsh language course, it was good to see such a response to the decision taken by Duolingo. In 2020, Welsh was the ninth most popular language amongst app users in the UK. And the current figures show that 658,000 people are learning Welsh through that app, and that 2 million and more have used that course since it was launched. Now, even more encouraging, the Welsh course is used by people in all corners of the world who are eager to learn the Welsh language. A great example of the reach of our language.
In terms of technology, I wanted to note an issue that was raised in the report relating to the use of Welsh in court cases. With online court cases and tribunals becoming far more common, I was disappointed to hear that it was only in face-to-face cases that those wishing to use the Welsh language in court could do so, and that it's not possible to do so remotely. So, what discussion is the Welsh Government having with the Ministry of Justice to tackle this inconsistency?
In terms of market research undertaken by the commissioner, it was good to see that 80 per cent of Welsh speakers questioned believed that opportunities to use the Welsh language with public bodies were either increasing or had remained at the same level. Eighty-two per cent were of the view that they could deal with organisations through the medium of Welsh if they chose to do so. These figures are very encouraging, and I would like to know how the Welsh Government intends to support those remaining public bodies that don't provide the people of Wales with equal opportunities.
There's only so much that the Welsh Language Commissioner can do in aiming towards the targets of 'Cymraeg 2050'. The Welsh Government has to redouble its efforts to increase the number of Welsh speakers. Earlier this month, I helped to launch the 'Wales YFC Impact Report' in the Senedd, promoting the important role that the organisation plays in our nation. The report emphasised the fact that 60 per cent of the membership were Welsh speakers, and many had learned the language through the YFC. The quote in the impact report that summarises the contribution of the YFC for me is,
'It gives young people the chance to use the Welsh language in lots of different ways such as drama. They might not have thought about doing an activity in Welsh outside of YFC, it's completely different to learning Welsh at school.'
Now we need to develop different pathways for the language as we move forward if we are to make progress towards the targets of 'Cymraeg 2050'. So, how is the Welsh Government supporting organisations such as the YFC to support the growth of the language?
And finally, we will be supporting the Plaid Cymru amendment. The attitude of HSBC in announcing that they were to cease to provide a Welsh language helpline was disgraceful. For me, it showed a lack of respect towards their Welsh-speaking customers and the language itself, and was damaging to the reputation of the company here in Wales. The commissioner and her predecessors have worked hard to encourage the use of the Welsh language through non-statutory means. Perhaps now is the time for banks to be subject to Welsh language standards. I would welcome your view on that, Minister.
The Welsh language and culture are intertwined, so any changes to the school calendar that impact negatively on important cultural events, such as the Royal Welsh or the Eisteddfod, will also have a negative impact on the Welsh language and culture. So, I encourage the Minister not to proceed with these changes.
I welcome this report and note the hard work that has been undertaken. We are on a path—the right path, hopefully—but there are many barriers that remain if we are to reach that target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050, where people are free to converse in their language of choice in a fully bilingual nation. Thank you, Llywydd.

Sian Gwenllian AC: Recent examples demonstrate clearly why the statutory powers of the Welsh Language Commissioner need to extend to include the private sector, starting with the banks. The appalling attitude of HSBC demonstrates clearly why we can't depend on goodwill to respect the rights of Welsh speakers.
At the end of the 1970s, I was a member of the Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg senedd. We campaigned to get large corporations—banks and breweries—to operate bilingually. At that time, the Midland Bank was used as an example of good practice. The Midland Bank is HSBC these days, of course, but there came a great change.
I have a series of e-mails that underline the negative, apathetic and, indeed, insulting attitude of today's HSBC towards the Welsh language.

Sian Gwenllian AC: 'Whilst I understand this decision is difficult, it is final',

Sian Gwenllian AC: were the words of HSBC to me on 10 November. Then, they ignored a further attempt on my part to reason with the bank. I am still awaiting a response to an e-mail on 16 November. From now on, customers who want to carry out their business through the Welsh language will have to wait over three days to do that. Overnight, the service was destroyed—a service that led the way for a time.
I want to refer to a second example of why we need to extend the standards, which is Toni Schiavone's campaign to receive a Welsh language parking ticket from One Parking Solution. Once again, the response is arrogant and insulting. Why do Welsh speakers have to continue to campaign and demand to have services through the medium of Welsh? It's about time that the fundamental rights of Welsh speakers should be respected by being placed on a statutory footing in all aspects of life.
The amendment put forward by Plaid Cymru today offers a way to start by making the banks subject to the statutory Welsh language standards. I look forward to hearing the Minister's views on this, and I am very pleased that the Conservatives are going to be supporting our amendment today. Thank you.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Minister now to reply.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you all for your contributions. More than one Member has asked me to comment on the amendment, so just to say that I agree that it's a contemptuous attitude taken by HSBC, and I agree entirely with the words of Siân Gwenllian on the change that there has been since the days of Midland Bank, which was a glittering example of how to behave in an inclusive and respectful manner towards the Welsh language. So, I share those feelings. I have written to the heads of all of the major banks. So, I will place that letter in the Library so that everyone has access to it. The reason that we won't be supporting the amendment is that it's not part of the Government's legislative programme. Of course, we have agreed a programme of activity with Plaid Cymru that prioritised those issues that we feel jointly will make the most difference to most people. So, that's why we won't be supporting the amendment this afternoon.
Heledd Fychan asked a question on the impact in terms of the budget on the commissioner's ability to regulate. Our understanding, from our discussions with the commissioner, is that that isn't expected to have an impact, as the Member will know. In terms of court cases and tribunals, as there is no reserve held by any of the commissioners now, there is a specific arrangement in place to address those issues should they arise. That isn't going to change, despite the cut in funding.
Heledd Fychan also asked what the intentions are in terms of working with public bodies to ensure that they understand their responsibilities to reduce the regulatory burden felt by the commissioner. That is, of course, at the heart of what the commissioner is trying to do in creating that relationship, which is more proactive, and a relationship that actually highlights the duties of these bodies before things go wrong, rather than dealing with issues after they arise.
Sam Kurtz asked a number of questions about technology. Just to say about Duolingo, I agree entirely with the point that he makes, but, in general, I would be surprised if 99 per cent of the people who use the app realised that there was a difference. So, we do need to take some comfort from that. It's not great, but the Welsh language is treated differently from the major languages, but this is part of a broader programme by Duolingo. In terms of the Welsh language, one of the encouraging things, I thought, was Duolingo's response to the campaign by Welsh speakers. They hadn't seen anything of the like before, so it does demonstrate the passion for learning Welsh. We will have more to say on technology and the use of interpretation in Teams, in due course. There are some developments there that I'm sure will be welcomed.
Everyone has a role to play, Llywydd, in protecting the Welsh language and working towards the targets of 'Cymraeg 2050', and I'm sure that this report shows that the commissioner is playing a central role in that. Efa, in her first full year, has stated clearly what her priorities are, and people are at the heart of her vision, including ensuring that young people are aware of the opportunities that they have to use the Welsh language, and that people have every opportunity to use the language as they use key services, such as health services. She is eager to listen to what organisations and individuals have to say about the Welsh language, and is determined to encourage organisations and individuals to work together to ensure a prosperous future for the language.
To respond to Heledd Fychan's point, in looking to the future, despite the challenges of the census results, the narrative around the Welsh language has certainly shifted and I think the support is greater than ever for the language. The data, of course, was disappointing, and we do need to capture that energy and collaborate in order to make a difference for the Welsh language. So, let us continue to do that together on our journey towards a million Welsh speakers and doubling daily use of the language. And I would urge you, therefore, to note this annual report formally, and I look forward to another year of collaboration with the Welsh Language Commissioner.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection and, therefore, we will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We will now discuss the general principles of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill and also the financial resolution in respect of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill. In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects, the two motions under items 8 and 9 will be grouped for debate but with separate votes.

The general principles of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill and the financial resolution in respect of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I don't see that there are objections, so we will ask the Counsel General, Mick Antoniw, to move the motion.

Motion NDM8464 Mick Antoniw
To propose that Senedd Cymru in accordance with Standing Order 26.11:
Agrees to the general principles of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill.

Motion NDM8465 Mick Antoniw
To propose that Senedd Cymru, for the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order 26.69, arising in consequence of the Bill.

Motions moved.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. It's a pleasure to open this debate on the general principles of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill and to move the motion on the general principles and on the financial resolution.
The general aim of the Bill is to make the Senedd more effective for and on behalf of the people of Wales. The size of the Senedd has a great deal of influence on the ability of Members to hold the Government to account. It impacts on its ability to scrutinise, to listen to constituents and to serve them. By now, we have 20 years of reports that demonstrate that we need to increase the size of the Senedd to deliver democracy of the standard that is expected of a modern parliament and legislature in this current era.

Mick Antoniw AC: Scrutiny and accountability of government is the foundation of parliamentary democracy. The Welsh Government welcomes that scrutiny. It is at the heart of a healthy democracy. It is a fundamental check and balance, and it is the ability to speak truth to power. Democracies foster debate and challenge. They believe that policies and laws are best forged in the fires of parliamentary scrutiny, and that's why this Bill is an investment in the modernisation of our democracy and its ability to scrutinise government.

Mick Antoniw AC: I am grateful to all members of the Reform Bill Committee, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and the Finance Committee for their careful and detailed scrutiny of the Bill, and to everyone who has contributed to their evidence gathering. Whilst I am unable to agree with every recommendation made by the committees, there are many recommendations that I do support and that I believe will valuably improve the legislation and its supporting documentation. I will not have time this afternoon at this stage to respond to all the 80 recommendations made across the three committees, but, recognising that this constitutional Bill will be scrutinised bya Committee of the Whole Senedd at Stage 2, which every Member will be part of, I've sought to rapidly respond in writing to the recommendations, and I will attempt to detail my position on a number of them today.
So, first of all, I welcome the Reform Bill Committee's first recommendation that the Senedd agreethe general principles of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill. This is a key milestone in the progress of this landmark legislation, which I believe is vital to strengthening democratic engagement in Wales and addressing the long-standing capacity deficit of our national Parliament. I also concur with their recommendation that, throughout their ongoing scrutiny of the Bill, Members of the Senedd should have regard to the issues highlighted in the committee's report, and, indeed, those of the Finance Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.
In concurring, I note also the committee's recommendation 14, which called for me to work with all political parties represented in the Senedd to reach agreement on how the Bill could be amended to ensure the electoral system provides a stronger voice for the Welsh people and clearer accountability for individual Members, and I will do my best. It is my opinion that the proposed closed list proportional representation system provided for by this Bill can both achieve the supermajority that is necessary for it to be passed and will be far superior to our current electoral system. It will improve democracy and ensure that every vote counts, and it will lead to a Senedd that is far more representative of the people of Wales, in all our diversities. It simplifies the current system—voters will have one ballot paper instead of two—and it is a system that is already familiar to voters, being used for the current regional list ballots and, formerly, for the election of MEPs, Members of the European Parliament. Closed lists also offer a genuine practical system by which parties can take action to address diversity in their representation of the Welsh public.
I do, however, recognise there are varying opinions and that the proposal in the Bill is, indeed, a compromise—a compromise to achieve the two thirds necessary to pass and become law, because if it fails to pass, then nothing changes. So, what I have to say to this Senedd is that, for this first election under the Bill, what we have may not go as far as some would like, but the Bill does provide a statutory requirement for a review after the 2026 elections. That will be an opportunity for Members to review how it has worked, what lessons can be learned and what changes, if any, should be made. The power for further change remains with the Senedd.
Turning to other aspects of the Bill, I would say to Members that I am open to constructive dialogue on how the Bill can be further improved. For example, I welcome the committee's recommendations 15 and 50 in relation to candidate names on the ballot paper and recall, which may both be considered to go some way to providing a stronger voice for voters and to improve accountability for Members to their electorates.
I haven't accepted the Reform Bill Committee's recommendation 6 or the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's recommendation 7, which both called for the removal of a power within the Bill that provides for the legislative limit upon Welsh Ministers to be increased to 18 or 19. The inclusion of this power provides for futureproofing, enabling future Welsh Governments to react quickly and flexibly to circumstances without utilising primary legislation for the sole purpose of increasing the legislative limit by one or two Ministers.

Mick Antoniw AC: I have explored whether recommendation 8 of the Reform Bill Committee could be taken forward to sunset any use of this power, but have identified that amendments of such a nature would likely impact on section 48 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, which is protected from modification, and so I reject the recommendation on that basis. However, I do agree with the Reform Bill Committee's recommendation 7 that this power should be subject to a two thirds majority, given that the use of this power will have an effect on the Senedd’s capacity for scrutiny.
I've also accepted the committee's recommendations 9, 11, 13, 19, 21, 24 and 26, providing rationales and considerations as requested, and committing to undertake further work and consideration. However, I haven't accepted recommendation 28, which called for amendments to reduce the permissible electoral quota variance from 10 per cent on constituency boundary reviews. In considering this element of the committee's report, I concur with the comments that were made by Professor Renwick that the level for an electoral quota is fundamentally a trade-off between equality of representation and the flexibility to respond to matters such as geography, local ties and community relations. I also note that bodies such as the Local Democracy and Boundary Commission for Wales and Boundaries Scotland expressed concerns to the committee that the more rigid the variance is, the more likely it may give rise to otherwise avoidable situations, such as very large geographic constituencies or the breaking of community ties. So, as such, whilst I recognise the concerns identified by Members around variations in constituency sizes, I believe that a variance of 10 per cent approximately balances such concerns against those which might arise from a more rigid electoral quota.
I have accepted recommendation 31 of the committee's report, which called for me to bring forward amendments to reduce the period within which Welsh Ministers must make regulations to give effect to the Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru’s recommendations from six months to four months. This will mean that bilingual regulations will be made in equivalent time to those resulting from UK parliamentary reviews.
I've also accepted recommendation 33, committing to bring forward amendments so that the Democracy and Boundary Commission Cymru must give a single monolingual name to Senedd constituencies if that is acceptable for communication through the medium of both Welsh and English. And I believe that this approach chimes with our wider ideal of harmonising Welsh and English place names, especially in instances whether there is very little difference between them. Similarly, I have accepted in principle recommendation 39, which called upon me to provide a mechanism for a reserve candidate who would otherwise be eligible to take up a vacancy arising during a Senedd term to become registered in the register of local government electors at an address within a Senedd constituency if they have, since the election, come off such a register. So, I'm exploring options by which this recommendation can be delivered.
Moving on, I haven't accepted the Reform Bill Committee's recommendation 41, which called for the removal of sections 7 and 19 from the Bill, or the equivalent recommendations of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. I recognise that Members have expressed concerns about the constitutional appropriateness of these provisions, but I don't agree that they are constitutionally problematic. There are other examples of statutory duties being placed on the Llywydd, and placing a duty on the Llywydd will not constrain a future Senedd to a particular course of action. It will be completely within the gift of the seventh Senedd to determine how it responds to the motions that sections 7 and 19 require the Llywydd to table. Whether it amends such motions, whether to agree the motions and, if they are agreed, how any work arising from such motions are taken forward, I firmly believe that the work envisaged by the motions is rightly for the Senedd to consider.
I have, however, accepted recommendation 47, and will aim to amend the Bill so that if the next Senedd decides to establish a committee under the motion provided for by section 19, and that committee produces a report, then Welsh Ministers will be legally obligated to respond to that report.
I also welcome and accept a range of recommendations made by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, setting out opinions and explanations in response to recommendations 4, 6, 9, 12, 13 and 14, for example. Similarly, I've accepted a range of recommendations made by the Finance Committee. Many of their recommendations invite me to consult the Senedd Commission, and, in some cases, to subsequently update the regulatory impact assessment. Discussions between the Government and the Senedd Commission have already commenced in relation to a number of these recommendations, and I anticipate that I will provide more detailed responses to the committee in due course.

Mick Antoniw AC: I look forward to hearing your views on this Bill. We've waited 20 years for this package of reforms and I believe that, taken together, they help to create a Parliament for Wales that will be fit for purpose for the next 20 years and beyond. Thank you very much.

Darren Millar AC: It will come as no surprise to anybody in this Chamber this afternoon to hear that the Welsh Conservatives will be voting against the progression of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill this evening.
Wales needs more doctors, nurses, dentists and teachers, it does not need more politicians. And it is a great shame, Llywydd, to see the time, energy and resources of both the Welsh Government and this Senedd focused on a piece of legislation that will increase the number of Members of the Welsh Parliament by an eye-watering 60 per cent when we could be discussing matters that are more important to the people of Wales, such as helping patients get access to doctors, dentists, tests and treatment, driving up poor standards in our schools and delivering better paid jobs for Welsh workers. These are the priorities of the people of Wales and they should be our priorities as their elected representatives too.
Not once have I ever knocked on a door in Clwyd West, or Clwyd North—. When I've spoken to the public, not once have they said that their priorities are more politicians in Cardiff Bay. Instead, they tell me that they want action to deliver better schools, hospitals, roads and flood defences. I've heard proponents of Senedd reform say that we can address all of these other issues, all of these other priorities, whilst still expanding the size of the Senedd, but that isn't true, because the costs of a larger Senedd and more Welsh Government Ministers will run to tens of millions of pounds each and every year, and that's tens of millions of pounds that we won't be able to invest in our schools, hospitals and other public services.
Llywydd, the Bill before us today is a Welsh Government Bill, it is not a Senedd Bill, which is how the Minister has tried to present it. It is seeking to bring forward legislation that will pave the way for a programme of reform that has been struck in a deal between the former leader of Plaid Cymru and the soon-to-be former leader of Welsh Labour without waiting for the outcome of the work of the Special Purpose Committee on Senedd Reform, making a mockery of the Parliament they claim they want to strengthen. There was no prior consultation with Members of either of their respective political groups, and, more importantly, of course, there was no consultation with members of the public either.
Presiding Officer, significant changes to how Members of this Welsh Parliament are elected should only be implemented with the consent of the public we are here to serve, yet there is no public mandate whatsoever for the changes proposed in this Bill. Every one of us in this Chamber knows that the overwhelming majority of the public do not support an increase in the size of the Senedd; that was borne out by evidence taken by the Senedd reform committee. We had an avalanche of correspondence from the public opposing the Bill that is before us today, compared to just a tiny trickle of public support coming in through correspondence. And even those in favour of Senedd reform acknowledged that even after presenting the arguments in favour of a larger Senedd to the public, they still remain unconvinced of the need to change.
Both Labour and Plaid MSs have been claiming a mandate for the proposed changes. They say that the woolly references in their manifestos to Senedd reform provide them with the necessary cover to introduce this package of measures. But that isn't the case at all, is it? The Labour manifesto, in advance of the last Senedd elections, made no reference to increasing the number of Members of the Senedd. It made no reference to changing the voting system, and it made no reference to taking away the opportunities for voters to vote for an individual candidate of their choice. Plaid's manifesto did at least refer to a larger Senedd and a change to the voting system, but not the change proposed through this particular Bill, and they didn't mention a 60 per cent increase in the size of the Senedd either. No-one mentioned this closed list voting system that has been proposed in the Bill. And let me be clear: this is a system that amounts to a power grab by political parties, taking power away from the voters and preventing them from being able to vote for a candidate of their choice. [Interruption.] I'll happily take an intervention.

Heledd Fychan AS: Who selected you to be a candidate? Was it the general public or your political party? How is this different to how candidates are currently selected?

Darren Millar AC: The beauty of the current voting system is that if the members of the public do not like the choice made of the candidate selected by my political party, they don't have to vote for me. That's the difference. You may want to take power away from the people of Wales. We don't, and we will defend them to the hilt. The ability to vote for a person and not just a party is absolutely vital. It ensures that there is direct accountability between elected representatives and the public they serve. The abolition of a voting system that allows that choice in favour of one that gives enormous powers to political parties to determine who gets elected and who doesn't will result in a Parliament where loyalty to your political party is more important than your loyalty to your constituents, and frankly, it will be devastating for Welsh democracy. It will also—[Interruption.] If you will allow me to take an intervention, I'd be happy to.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: You have to admit that the leader of your own party here was selected through a list system by his own party members.

Darren Millar AC: The people in my constituency have an opportunity to vote for an individual person, and of course they have a vote for a political party on a list. But they have a vote. Everybody in this country—[Interruption.] I know you don't want to listen, but if you will allow me to respond—

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Allow Darren Millar to continue.

Darren Millar AC: The reality is that everybody in Wales at the moment at a Senedd election can vote for an individual candidate of their choice. You want to take that ability away from them.
The system before us will also deliver a less representative Welsh Parliament due to candidates needing to secure 12 per cent of the vote in an individual constituency in order to secure a single seat. You're trying to argue that it's going to be more representative, and yet those smaller parties, one of which is currently represented in the Senedd but may no longer be in the future, are going to suffer as a result of that, and you're going to silence their voters. So, there's no public mandate for these changes. I appreciate that some members of other political parties believe that there is public support, so I say this to you: if there is, let's have a referendum. Give the people of Wales the choice on whether to endorse this atrocious system to elect people to this Senedd or not, and I can tell you which fingers they will use to salute you in response.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I was so keen to call Darren Millar that I forgot to call the three Chairs of committees, who were meant to be called first. I apologise to all three. David Rees, the Chair of the Bill committee.

David Rees AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Before I focus on the committee's report, I wish to express our thanks to the witnesses who gave evidence, and to those individuals who took time to submit a written opinion to the committee. Everything we heard and received was taken into consideration when coming to our conclusions. I'll also express the committee's thanks to the clerking team who supported us, because without their dedication and commitment, we could not have undertaken this work and produced the report for your consideration today.

David Rees AC: Llywydd, the committee was tasked with undertaking the Stage 1 scrutiny of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill, or, as many of us refer to it, the Senedd reform Bill. We were not asked to consider whether the Senedd needed reform, or the shape of that reform. Previous committees in this and earlier Seneddau had considered those issues. We were asked to consider the Bill that the Welsh Government has brought forward, and whether that Bill delivered on the reform proposals that would deliver improved democratic scrutiny for the people of Wales, which will lead to a healthier democracy within Wales.
With this remit being clear, we undertook the scrutiny with the view to comment upon whether we believe the Bill should progress and, if so, how it could be improved to strengthen the democratic health of our nation, whilst always recognising the fact that such constitutional changes would require the support of two thirds of this Senedd's Members. In doing this, we reminded ourselves that, as Members of the Senedd, we are elected to work for and with the communities we represent. Our job is to make sure that our communities' interests are at the forefront of our thinking when we hold the Welsh Government to account and when we seek to improve policy, legislation, spending and taxation decisions through robust and effective scrutiny.
We need to be confident that the structures that will be in place will allow that detailed scrutiny. And against the backdrop of continual change, the Senedd and its Members have found ways to work differently and more efficiently, but in doing so we have often seen the Senedd's fixed capacity stretched to its limits. This Welsh Government Bill is a key milestone in the Senedd's development, and in the development of Welsh democracy that we all prize so highly. The Bill covers a wide range of reforms, and the committee has explored these in detail, which has allowed us to come to our conclusions.
Following our scrutiny, we published a report, which included 50 recommendations, the first of which was that the majority of committee members were persuaded by the evidence that a reformed and larger Senedd would be better able to fulfil its responsibility to the people of Wales, now and in the future. As such, we recommended that the Senedd agrees the general principles so that the Bill can progress to the next stage of the legislative process. I note that the Counsel General referred to that. I would have been surprised if he hadn't said that he concurred with our decision. I'm very pleased that he did concur with our decision. However, this does not represent unqualified support for all of the Bill's provisions. There are elements that we believe require further reflection, and that's why we made various recommendations.
I understood what the Counsel General said, and I very much welcome the recommendations he's accepted, but there were some that I still think that he needs to consider further. Our most significant concern was with the proposed closed list electoral system that is within the Bill. The evidence we received led to our concern about its impact on voter choice, and the extent to which it will contribute to a healthy democracy in Wales. Whilst we recognise that this system is already operational to elect regional Members to the Senedd, it does change the relationship voters have with a named individual for whom they have voted for in the current first-past-the-post system.
We have not reached a committee view on which electoral system should be used, although we have heard evidence about flexible lists and the single transferable vote, and believe that either of those systems could go some way towards addressing the concerns we have heard about voter choice, accountability, and party influence upon the lists. We urge all political parties in the Senedd to work together to ensure that the system that comes forward does provide greater voter choice and improves accountability for future members of the electorate.
Our report also sets out other ways to improve the Bill to ensure that Welsh democracy remains progressive and healthy, including, for example, adjustments to the number of democracy and boundary commission commissioners; technical changes, which the Counsel General has accepted; and practical ways in which the new residency disqualification for candidates and Members is implemented. I'm pleased the Counsel General accepted one of those as well. We also want to see changes to section 5 of the Bill, regarding the size of the Welsh Government. I listened to what the Counsel General said, and I understood his argument on GOWA, but I still think, and we do believe, that it is important that we do not use just regulation powers—that primary legislation should be used if you wish to increase the number of Welsh Ministers.
There was a majority of committee members that believed such changes should be made by primary legislation, and we therefore call for those regulation powers to be removed and for the Counsel General to rethink that situation. We appreciate that he needs to strengthen the process, and he has accepted the two-thirds majority, but we still ask him to go back to think about the primary legislative solution as recommended.
We have also got concerns about sections 7 and 19 in the Bill, which, again, the Counsel General has rejected, as he's highlighted, because we believe that the requirement of putting rules on a future Presiding Officer to table motions to propose the establishment of committees to carry out specified work—we are concerned about those requirements. We believe that, for example, section 7 unnecessarily delays further work on job sharing—why can't we start that now? We don't have to put a motion to the next Senedd for that? And section 19 is out of step with other electoral law review provisions that place duties on governments. It would also place significant constraints on the timetable for any committee's work. We have also heard concerns about the principle of these provisions, especially the extent to which it is appropriate for this Senedd to bind it successors. As a mature Parliament, the Senedd must have the flexibility to determine its own structures and how it uses that scrutiny capacity, and that's why we felt that sections 7 and 19 were constitutionally problematic.
Llywydd, we've also considered some matters that are not within the Bill, including how constituents can hold Members to account, and I think recall was mentioned by the Counsel General. We think those are important questions that need to be raised, but we also understand the complexity of applying the current model in a closed list system. The standards commissioner suggested that there was scope to strengthen the disqualification arrangements and sanctions for Members who breach the code of conduct. We therefore believe that Members should be accountable, and these are complex, but we're asking the Standards of Conduct Committee to look at these matters further to develop that for public consultation.
Finally, we remember that, if this Bill is passed, all Members of the Senedd and our successors to come have a responsibility to ensure that people in the communities we represent have confidence in the robustness and integrity of Senedd elections, and that the potential benefits and improved outcomes that this Bill promises are delivered in practice. I think it's important that we take forward this understanding of the complexity of the Bill and the need to ensure that people come with us, because it is important that people have that confidence in what we are doing.
Llywydd, to conclude, I want to express my thanks to all committee members, particularly Jane Dodds and Llyr Gruffydd, who substituted for Heledd Fychan during the final consideration, for the positive, collegiate and constructive way in which our work was conducted. I hope our work and the report produced will help Members as they consider the Bill at this stage and at future stages, if it is passed today. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Alun Davies now to speak on behalf of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, Presiding Officer. Like other Members, I'd like to start by thanking the staff and the secretariat of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for the work they did in bringing forward this report. For the record, and for those Members here who are not aware of these matters, I took on the temporary chairing of this committee for the purpose of scrutinising this Bill. I would also like to thank Carolyn Thomas and Luke Fletcher for stepping in as substitutes for Huw Irranca-Davies and Adam Price to undertake this work. We're very grateful as a committee to you both for that.
Presiding Officer, our report on the Bill drew four conclusions and made 14 recommendations. Given the significance of the Bill, we concluded that space should have been found within the timetable to prepare and seek views on a draft Bill. Such pre-legislative scrutiny is particularly important for Bills of this nature. It would have provided Senedd committees and Members with opportunities to engage with stakeholders and to consider at an early stage how the Welsh Government proposed to turn policy objectives into law. In our view, it is vital to get this legislation right to avoid unintended consequences. A draft Bill would have been a great help in this process.
On section 5 of the Bill, the Counsel General has rejected the majority view of the committee that section 5(b) should be removed. If the face of the Bill were to specify the maximum number of Welsh Ministers as 19, this would remove the need for a regulation-making power to change the figure of 17 to 18 or 19 at some point in the future. It would provide greater flexibility, but in a more appropriate way.
On sections 7 and 19, our report expressed concern that a Bill whose aims include increasing the scrutiny depth of the Senedd and its capacity to hold the Welsh Government of the day to account is seeking to influence and potentially constrain the seventh Senedd's committee system. That should be a matter for that Senedd to determine. The Welsh Government, in both sections 7 and 19, is asking the sixth Senedd to pass legislation that would impose duties on the seventh Senedd and bind that Senedd's Presiding Officer. In doing so, it breaches the principle that an Act of Parliament should not constrain the freedom of action of a future Parliament. We do not consider such provisions to be constitutionally appropriate.

Alun Davies AC: Our report also drew attention to other issues with these sections. For example, on section 7, we noted that there is no guarantee the policy development work undertaken by a committee—work that, in the main, is a matter for Government—will be implemented by the Welsh Government, calling into question the use of Senedd resources that would be better utilised on scrutiny and holding the Government to account.We therefore recommended, Presiding Officer, that the Counsel General should consider the constitutional propriety of sections 7 and 19 and whether they should be included in the Bill. 
The Counsel General’s explanation for retaining these sections, namely that they are akin to the Government of Wales Act 2006 placing a duty on the Presiding Officer to decide on whether or not a Bill is within the Senedd’s legislative competence, is, I'm afraid, not persuasive. The Senedd is a creature of statute. To pass legislation, the 2006 Act places permanent duties on the Senedd’s Presiding Officer so that the Senedd is able to perform its democratic role to legislate. That is in no way equivalent to what is proposed in sections 7 and 19 of the Bill.I also note the Counsel General’s justification for retaining section 19 on the grounds that the Bill emanated from a special purpose committee. However, section 19 itself is not based on a recommendation of that committee.
In our view, post-legislative scrutiny could take place without the need for section 19. For example, any relevant committee of the seventh Senedd could agree to undertake post-legislative scrutiny of the Act, setting its own terms of reference and time frame for undertaking that work. We have also concluded in our report that this is, in essence, a Government Bill, and that there is no reason why Welsh Ministers could not be placed under a duty to report on the operation and effect of their own legislation within a set time period, as often appears in other Acts of the Senedd.
Presiding Officer, you have allowed me to make some personal remarks at the conclusion of this contribution, and I'm grateful to you for that. Speaking, therefore, in a personal capacity, let me say this: I have listened to this debate and I've enjoyed listening and contributing to the conversations that we've had across this place. I've even enjoyed the contributions of Darren Millar. [Laughter.] I think, sometimes, we lose something in this debate. Do youknow, I've listened and participated in these debates almost since Kilbrandon published his report in 1973? I was in Dukestown juniors at the time; I took a great deal of interest. But let me say this: we've debated these matters for perhaps too long. We've debated for perhaps too long about the nature of our democracy. We need to vote on these matters and we need to move on.
Let me also say: I sat on the Finance Committee examination of the costs of this reform. We heard Darren's view on some of these matters. I have to say that I was neither impressed nor persuaded by many of the arguments and the evidence of costs that were put in front of us. The scrutiny of the Finance Committee did not demonstrate that many of the costs put forward are costs that are, in any way, real, and I believe we do need to look again at some of those matters. But I also think, in attempts to measure the possible cost, we seemed to lose sight of why we are here.
I listen to what the Conservatives say on these matters. I listened to Darren speaking for an age about how much he had no wish to support additional politicians—we've got too many politicians, we don't need any more. What was running through my mind was, 'Has he had this conversation with Lord Cameron? Has he had this conversation with the family members of Boris Johnson? Has he had this conversation with all the donors and cronies and hangers-on that now populate the red benches in London?' And, of course, the answer is, 'No, he hasn't.' And he's sat there with all his friends who have supported—[Interruption.]—oh, here we go; give me a moment—who have supported the creation of the biggest legislature in the world in London, bigger than the Chinese Communist Party, without saying a word.

Darren Millar AC: My own view is that the House of Lords needs reform, Alun. I've got no problem in saying that, and I think it is too large, and we've got too many peers who don't work and still have an entitlement to sit in that place. That is wrong and it needs to be addressed. But two wrongs don't make a right, and we're in danger of making a dreadful mistake here as far as democracy in Wales is concerned, particularly with this closed list voting system.

Alun Davies AC: Okay. What we're doing is entrenching and deepening democracy, and that is important. What is happening in London is a democracy that is being undermined by the creation of unelected peers on the basis of donations to the Conservative Party. That is a fundamental affront to democracy. It shouldn't happen and you should be supporting the democracy in this place.
But let me say this, let me say this—[Interruption.] There are too many Lib Dems, okay, fair enough. [Laughter.] But none of these people ever criticise the costs incurred in Westminster in London. They never criticise the creation of new politicians in London. They never criticise—[Interruption.]They never criticise—[Interruption.] They never criticise the profligacy of a UK Government. They only ever criticise the deepening of democracy in Wales, because, fundamentally, they don't like Welsh democracy, and they don't care about Welsh democracy. But let me tell you, I care too much to allow you to undermine our democracy.
I also believe—and this is important as well—I actually believe in the STV system, the single transferable vote. I believe that STV empowers people and provides a fair and accountable democracy. It is far better than first-past-the-post and it is far better than most other systems. I look forward to Labour in Government in the United Kingdom delivering STV to the rest of the United Kingdom, and I look forward at some point in Wales to us delivering STV here in Wales as well. But I also recognise—and this is the difficult part—that to deliver change involves compromise, and, for me, the great compromise that I make personally in supporting this is not to push further on STV. I believe that STV—I passionately believe that STV is the most accountable form of Government and democracy and we need to seek to do that. But I hope that what we are able to do today is to move forward to a proportional system that will enable us both to represent people in constituencies up and down the country but also provide accountable Government here in Wales. Presiding Officer, I will finish by quoting—[Interruption.]—by quoting Margaret Thatcher. [Interruption.] Margaret Thatcher—[Interruption.] It was said that Margaret Thatcher knew the price of everything and the value of nothing. Today's Tories have learnt nothing since then.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Chair of the Finance Committee next—Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Llywydd. And I welcome the opportunity to participate in this important debate on the future of the Senedd. As well as thanking Senedd officials who have supported the committee’s consideration of this Bill, I would also like to thank the committee’s expert adviser, Ailsa Henderson, whose expertise and knowledge of electoral systems and boundaries provided essential context that informed our work.
Our report makes 16 recommendations, and I’m pleased the Counsel General has accepted the majority of our recommendations and that the work has commenced in looking at some with the Commission and others. However, his response says that some of the recommendations are matters for the Senedd Commission, even though the committee explicitly noted its expectation that it is a matter for the Member in charge to provide these figures, in consultation with the Commission.
Although we accept that this Bill is unusual, in that the majority of costs fall on a body other than the Welsh Government, we find the Counsel General’s unwillingness, as Member in charge, to take lead responsibility for these costs disappointing.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Turning to the committee's main findings, we are broadly content with the financial implications of the Bill,as set out in the RIA. However, the committee has concerns about some of the assumptions used to model the estimates presented in the RIA and our recommendations aim to improve and increase the transparency of both costs and potential savings.
We welcome the Counsel General’s claim that an increase in the Senedd would lead to improved scrutiny of budgets and legislation, matters that are close to the heart of the Finance Committee. However, we are disappointed that detailed estimates of savings were not included.
The Counsel General also maintains that the Bill is an investment in democracy and will pay for itself. While we accept that improved scrutiny leads to improved outcomes, better attempts should have been made to quantify the scrutiny benefits. As a result, we have recommended that the Counsel General models the anticipated savings as a result of the Bill to quantify the impact of scrutiny benefits. While we welcome his willingness to assess the potential savings, it is a shame that such work wasn't done prior to the Bill's introduction, given that these proposals have been in the pipeline for a number of years.
I note the Counsel General’s assurance, in response to recommendation 12, that no additional Welsh Government staff will be required, unless there is a change in devolved responsibilities. However, we remain unconvinced and believe that it will be difficult to sustain levels of ministerial support within existing resources if the number of Welsh Ministers increase and ask the Counsel General to look in more detail at this again.
Turning now to other recommendations aimed at improving the clarity of cost estimates, the committee is concerned that the creation of larger constituencies could, on average, have financial implications for Members’ travel and accommodation costs. We have recommended that the costs be reassessed using a range rather than the average costs of current Members, who cover a smaller geographical area, which the Counsel General has accepted in principle.
In addition, a greater rise in the number of committees, above three as accounted for in the Bill, could replicate the need for Members to sit on multiple committees and thus could imperil the scrutiny gains made possible by additional Members. Our recommendation 5 calls for more modelling work to be done to understand the scrutiny benefits and the impact that an increase in the number of committees would have. The Counsel General has agreed to discuss this further with the Commission and we urge this work to be undertaken to ensure that scrutiny benefits materialise, and he's confirmed that some of that work has already started.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Finally, Llywydd, I would like to draw attention to our recommendations relating to the cost of future boundary reviews. Reviews conducted after the initial pairing exercise for the 2026 election will be drawn so that no new constituency is 10 per cent over or under electoral parity. This could potentially be a complex undertaking that may lead to considerable change and result in higher costs. I'm grateful to the Counsel General for agreeing to provide an update on costs once all the relevant boundary changes have been completed to enable the committee or a future finance committee to understand the full financial impact of the Bill.
Llywydd, our job as a committee is to ensure that the cost estimates presented alongside all legislation introduced in the Senedd are as robust and accurate as possible. We are content with the costs presented alongside this landmark Bill, but we believe that there is a need for some fine-tuning to ensure full transparency. Thank you very much.

Heledd Fychan AS: Today, we mark another step forward in the journey of this Bill, which is also a major step forward for Wales. I think it's important that we reflect upon the importance of this Bill.
The provisions in the Bill, taken together, are a definite and long-awaited step towards the creation of a Senedd that can better serve the people of Wales and create a real Parliament for Wales that is stronger, more effective and more representative of our nation in every sense of the word, and such a Senedd will be in place by 2026.
This will deliver fairness for Wales in terms of the number of Members in our Parliament. Why should we settle for having a small, inadequate Senedd as compared to comparably sized nations? Why can't we demand the best for Wales in terms of democracy?
These are ambitious plans, and let us not allow anyone to claim otherwise, because Wales will be the first national legislature in Britain to move away in full from the first-past-the-post electoral system. Consider how undemocratic the current situation is where someone can be elected to a majority of seats in this Senedd with the majority of voters having voted against them.
The Bill will also facilitate the introduction of statutory gender quotas to place the promise of a more representative Parliament at the heart of a transformed institution. This would be another significant and radical development, and I look forward to seeing the electoral candidate lists Bill being introduced very soon, as it is important, of course, for the Senedd to be able to consider both Bills side by side. In expanding the Senedd, the last thing we should want to see is a repeat of a situation where women are the underrepresented majority in this place. We have to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to be representing their communities here and to have a Senedd that is genuinely representative of Wales.
The Bill provides a mechanism, as mentioned earlier, in terms of the review mechanism, and we will need such a mechanism. There will be further work for the next Senedd to do in terms of the introduction of job sharing. We have to remember that we are a young democracy—it's only 25 years since the first election to this Chamber. We continue to be a new democracy, but we have to be ready to evolve so that we can achieve what the people of Wales want us to deliver here in this Chamber.
Over the years, a number of panels and commissions have agreed that our Senedd isn't appropriately constituted to do the work that the people of Wales have tasked it with doing. There was also a great deal of discussion on what the ideal system should be, and we have already heard the views of a number of Members on this. You'll know full well that Plaid Cymru favours the single transferable vote system, or open or flexible proportional lists, but our priority is ensuring that a bold package of reforms is in place by 2026 and ensuring that the review following that is one that will genuinely enable further changes to be made by 2030.
It's for commentators and academics to challenge, provide analysis and draw attention to best practice, and I'm hugely grateful to everyone who has given evidence to the Reform Bill Committee. It was a privilege to be part of that work, and I would like to thank my fellow members, the Chair, and all of the staff who were involved in supporting that work. And thanks in particular to Llyr Gruffydd for taking my place over the past few weeks.
A number of important themes have emerged in the recommendations by the committee, including the importance of ensuring the independence of the governance arrangements of the new Democracy and Boundary Commission for Wales are beyond doubt and unimpeachable, bearing in mind that this body will have the final word on deciding these boundaries. There are specific recommendations by the committee to strengthen these arrangements and it's important that these are agreed at Stage 2. And I note that the Local Government and Housing Committee has published its report on the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill; it was good to hear those comments too.
There are further questions about the directions to the commission, and I'm pleased that the Minister has rejected the recommendations to tie the commission's hands in terms of further limiting the 10 per cent quota. I was very pleased that the committee was also unanimously in favour of tipping the balance in favour of using Welsh names for constituencies, and further amendments will be required on this issue.
The need for more technical amendments to ensure that there are no unintended consequences under the residency requirement has already been mentioned, and there is a need to give the Senedd additional clarity on who will be responsible for leading this work of co-ordinating efforts to raise awareness of the new electoral system. There is also further work to do in developing policy and a system in Wales for the development of party manifestos for the governance of Wales—all this and more to be covered in Stage 2, no doubt.
However, when all of the evidence has been gathered and everyone has had their say, our work as Members of the Senedd, of course, and as legislators, is to make decisions. The decision facing us today is to weigh up this package of policies and the principles that have been set out. I'm very pleased, and consider it to be a privilege, to vote in favour of our democracy's ongoing journey, in favour of taking a step forward, whilst keeping our eyes on our full ambitions for the future. I encourage every Member to support what is before us today, for Wales and for democracy.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I just start off by saying that it is better to get this Bill right than to complete it ready for the next Senedd election?
On the number of Members, in the 1990s, the initial proposal was 80 Members, but that was overturned for the 60 Members we have today. Scotland has 129 seats for an electorate of 4,245,000—one Member for every 32,900 electors. Northern Ireland has 90 Members for an electorate of 1.3 million—one Member for every 15,260 electors. Wales currently has 60 Members for an electorate of 2,348,000, giving 39,140 electors per Member. So, Wales is out of step. We're higher than Scotland and Northern Ireland. Moving to 96 Members would produce 24,464 electors per Member, which, if you look at it, is approximately midway between Scotland and Northern Ireland. So, there's nothing abnormal about us going up to 96.
We currently have small committees. I serve with Peredur on the Finance Committee. We have four Members: one ill, one held up in traffic, the meeting becomes inquorate. Anybody who travels along the M4 from the west will be well aware of just how easy it is to get held up in traffic.
How do you pay for these additional Members? If you have more Members, then the commissioners, such as the children's commissioner and the older persons' commissioner, will need less staff to scrutinise. Therefore, they would need smaller budgets.
The current closed list system would mean that voters would only be able to choose between parties and groupings, rather than individual candidates. The committee that David Rees chaired heard evidence from experts that this would reduce the choice available to voters and risk voter dissatisfaction and turnout. The committee were also united in their concerns about the impact of the voting system being put forward by the Welsh Government on the level of voter ability to choose who represents them. Getting the electoral system right is fundamental to the health of democracy in Wales, and I agree with the committee on their significant reservations about the closed list system.
If the Bill is voted through its first stage—and I'm urging that that happens—then there needs to be further consultation on the electoral system. Can we approve everything but the electoral system? I think there's probably a majority in here—of which I'm not one—for STV, but I think that we really ought to look at a different system. In democracy, gerrymandering is the political manipulation of electoral boundaries with the intent of creating undue advantage for a party. We do things differently in Wales. Where other parties bring in electoral systems so that they can win a majority, Labour in Wales brings in one to make it difficult to win a majority.
We now have suggested an electoral system of six Members for each of 16 constituencies created by merging two parliamentary constituencies, with 16 constituencies. Under the plan, the new Senedd constituencies will be a paired combination of the 32 set out for Westminster. Many people, including me, were concerned about the size of the constituency of Brecon, Radnor and Cwmtawe, stretching from Knighton and Presteigne on the English border to Lower Brynamman and Gwaen-Cae-Gurwen on the border with Carmarthenshire.
To create a six-Member constituency would involveBrecon, Radnor and Cwmtawe either going northwards with Montgomery and Glyndŵr, westwards with Ceredigion and Preseli,or with Carmarthenshire; southwards produces a choice of Monmouthshire, Neath and Swansea East, Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney or Merthyr Tydfil and Aberdare. Whichever way of creating a six-Member constituency, the constituency would be very large and involve communities with very little things in common.
Whilst this is the most extreme example, there will be many others outside the cities that will also be covering very large areas. We could elect 96 Members using the parliamentary constituencies, with three from each, elected via D'Hondt. The advantage of that is that these constituencies will have already had a general election for voters to get used to the new seats, and, whilst some will be large, they will be much smaller than any of the joint seats. This is why I'm asking for 32 three-Member constituencies, where the Senedd and Westminster Parliament would have the same boundaries.
I urge support for the principle, and I think that having a 96-Member Senedd is a very good idea and I think that we need it—if only so that we can have an extra Member on the Finance Committee so that we don't end up with a situation where we're dependent on the M4. So, I hope we'll go along with that.
And can I just say one thing about STV? Alun Davies raised it. It is many things; proportional is not one of those things. And if you want to find out why I say that, look at the Irish election results, look at the Scottish council election results, and you'll see how unproportional it is.

Tom Giffard AS: Standing here today listening to this debate, you wouldn't think that educational outcomes in Wales were the worst in the UK; you wouldn't think that people in Wales earn £3,000 less than people in Scotland; you wouldn't think that the Welsh economy was the weakest of all the UK nations; you wouldn't think that rates of child poverty in Wales are the highest in the UK; and you wouldn't think that NHS waiting lists were the longest in the United Kingdom. And the reason you wouldn't think any of those things is that we're stood here once again debating adding more politicians to this Senedd at a cost of hundreds of millions of pounds. When you look at the crisis facing Wales under this Welsh Labour Government, bottom of basically every league table you can imagine, wouldn't you think that instead of increasing the size of the Senedd, we should be spending those hundreds of millions on more doctors and nurses to tackle those NHS waiting lists, more teachers to get to grips with those awful PISA results, and more action to get the very poorest in our country into work and out of poverty? What we're pursuing today aren't the people's priorities; they're the politicians' priorities—prioritising ourselves over better outcomes for the people that we represent.
And let's not kid ourselves that having more politicians here in the Senedd is somehow brave and will lead to better representation for the people of Wales. That idea is laughable. Indeed, the cross-party Senedd committee tasked with looking at this Bill found quite clearly that the plans could erode the link between the public and the politicians that they send to this place. The committee heard evidence that the plans would prioritise the influence of political parties over their constituents, putting all the power into the hands of Government whips and taking power away from the people that we represent. Llywydd, this is a democracy. We shouldn't be standing for this. As politicians, we shouldn't be proud to stand for a system that takes power out of the hands of the people. Making our country less democratic shouldn't be something that we support.
I do genuinely believe that the people in this Chamber who support the Bill, many of whom we've heard from today, are not bad people with bad intentions—far from it—and there are arguments in favour of reforming this place. I think we'd all agree that things here are not as perfect as they could be. And those arguments genuinely deserve to be heard. But if they're as popular, as inspiring and as transformational as we've heard so far today, why aren't we putting that to the test in a referendum? What calibre of politician must exist in this place that are only capable of making their arguments inside the comfort of the Senedd Chamber, but are incapable of looking their voters in the eye to make that same case? When the people of Wales voted to establish the Welsh Assembly, as it was then, I was a young child, but the promise was made that this would be a political institution that did things differently, not only bringing decision making closer to the people impacted by those decisions, but the glass on the building, for example, was supposed to signify that there was no disconnect between the public and the politicians inside the building. Llywydd, many across Wales don't feel like this Senedd has lived up to those ideals as it is. But if we support this measure for more politicians today, without the approval of the people of Wales, in their Parliament, we jeopardise the very reason that this Welsh Parliament exists.
For those of us in this Chamber who believe in devolution, a Welsh Parliament and all that it can achieve, we need to remember that this is and should be the people's Parliament. If we vote for more politicians without asking the people's permission, all we will do is create the impression that this isn't a Parliament for them. All we will do is give greater ammunition to those people who don't want this place to exist at all. Whatever side of the Chamber you sit on, however well meaning you are, however much you truly believe in these proposals, if you are a devolutionist, don't risk the perception that this Parliament only serves itself. Don't stray from the opening ideals of a Parliament for the people, by the people, and don't vote for these proposals today, at the very least without supporting a referendum to validate it.

Adam Price AC: Since you didn't take an intervention, I'll say what everyone else wanted to say. You basically decided to give us these powers. You had the opportunity—your party in Government—to decide to make it conditional on a referendum; you chose not to do that. And indeed, when we got tax-raising powers, having originally proposed the referendum, you then decided that we didn't need a referendum on that. So, you're not consistent with what you have actually done. Now, I think that—[Interruption.]

Darren Millar rose—

Adam Price AC: I'll happily give way to Tom Giffard, if he wants to come back. Well, okay, I'll be generous, Darren, seeing as it's you.

Darren Millar AC: I just want to make reference to the consistency argument. Of course, we are being consistent in calling for a referendum where significant changes to the voting system are being proposed. We held a referendum on whether to adopt an alternative vote system under David Cameron's Government. He gave people the opportunity to vote for that or against it. This is an equally significant change, which will scrap first-past-the-post elections to this Senedd, by which 40 of the current 60 Members are elected. Therefore, scrapping it ought to be via a referendum only.

Adam Price AC: So, does that mean—breaking news—that there's actually going to be a referendum on the changes to the electoral system for the mayor of London, or for the police and crime commissioners happening in May? Where was the—? There's no consistency, Darren, in the position of your party. This is driven by political expediency every time.
Political progress in Wales is painfully slow at the best of times, and it seldom proceeds in a straight line. As Alun Davies reminded us, the Royal Commission on the Constitution, the Kilbrandon commission, which reported 51 years ago, having looked at the Stormont experience with their House of Commons with only 52 Members—very close to us—said that at that level it was too small a Parliament to do its democratic job. It then recommended a 100-Member senate for Wales. Here we are, four commissions/expert panels later, who have all concluded that we needed to be a bigger parliament. And we're almost there—we're almost there—if we get this Bill through.
And I have to disagree. It's a philosophical and a practical disagreement with those on the Conservative benches, because I don't believe that strengthening our democracy's ability to deliver, strengthening its ability to deliver its key function, which is to improve the lives of the people of Wales, is a distraction from the work of politics. That's at the heart of politics. If you follow the logic of your argument, then, actually, you're arguing in favour of abolition, which is, I hope, not where you really want to go—

Darren Millar AC: Will you take an intervention?

Adam Price AC: I've taken one, Darren. Oh, go on, then.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for your generosity in taking a further intervention. I can assure you that we are not abolitionists of this place. We support devolution and we're proud devolutionists. But you are talking about strengthening democracy and strengthening this institution. You're the same person who undermined this institution by doing a deal with the current First Minister in order to bring these proposals forward, while the committee was taking some important work forward in developing some proposals. So, it's a bit rich of you to criticise us when you're the person who undermined democracy.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Okay, that was another speech by Darren Millar.

Adam Price AC: I'll think better next time, Darren, before accepting a second intervention. Look, when you have to have a two-thirds majority in this place, to get that level of change, that can only happen at a political level, where you have parties working together. Actually, despite what you said, you're wrong: we consulted democratically within our party, and the only way you could get change was to have agreement across the party political divide, and that's what happened.
In terms of the benefits that this represents in terms of our democracy, at the moment, this smaller scale Senedd is not able to do its job. We're underpowered in a variety of different ways. Think about not just scrutiny, but the formation of the Government. When you have, as a proportion, so many people in the governing party, as it is at the moment, holding ministerial positions, you don't have the pool of other talent on the non-ministerial benches that you're able to rotate. So, by increasing the size of the Senedd, you create a greater reservoir of skills and experience that can be drawn upon. And that's true for us as a Senedd as a whole. At the moment, we're not representative socially and in terms of life experience, as we need to be to do our job. By building a larger Senedd, we can become more inclusive and diverse, and we all gain as a result of that.
Just thinking in practical terms, we can only meet in Plenary for two days a week. We are shorter than all the other Parliaments, even the Northern Ireland Assembly, now it's going to be up and running again. We are unable to meet more than that for Plenary because committees would be inquorate. We simply wouldn't be able to do it. I'm on four committees, if you include the Senedd Commission as well. It's not possible for us to have that third Plenary day. Think of what that could represent in terms of releasing the legislative creativity in this place. We've only passed one private Member's Bill in the last eight years. We've only passed one committee Bill. We've only passed one committee Bill ever, largely because we simply don't have the bandwidth, at the moment, to be able to do that. So, for all of these reasons, this is why this is a historic opportunity, and I hope, beyond the disagreements that we’re having here, Darren, as we were discussing a moment ago, that we can also then have a wider discussion, which includes your party as well, as to how we make the best of this democratic opportunity to raise our ability to impact positively on the lives of the people of Wales.
I'll just say something briefly about the electoral system. Yes, my party has supported STV for almost 100 years, right from the very beginning, and that's where we want to get to. I think it is a hugely positive step forward that we are getting rid of the first-past-the-post system. We were the first nation on the island of Britain to do that, and that takes us in the direction where we would like to go, in terms of STV. The review mechanism gives us an opportunity, and what we should do is, in our respected parties, all of us—. It'll be in the Plaid Cymru manifesto, I'd like to see it in other party manifestos as well. Let's see more local authorities doing what Gwynedd is doing, bringing STV forward at a local level, so we can create a momentum in favour of getting it to where we want to by 2030.
And maybe, based on the recommendation of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales yesterday, maybe in the review mechanism, there's a role for citizens there as well. There's a suggestion about why not have a citizens' assembly, alongside the discussions that happen here, alongside the expert evidence, as the committee has suggested. Why not actually use this as an opportunity to use that deliberative mechanism of a citizens' assembly to ask the people of Wales, 'Yes, we're making a step forward with this Bill, but where do you want to go next, because progress is never ending for our nation?'

Natasha Asghar AS: I'm actually going to begin by asking you to hold on to your seats because I'm going to begin with some praise. As far as I'm concerned, there's only been one good come thing to come from the Welsh Government's roll-out of the blanket 20 mph speed limit policy, and that is that it has captured the attention of the nation. It has resulted in more people getting involved and engaged in politics, the Welsh Government and, ultimately, the Welsh Parliament. More people have stopped to think, 'Well, if the Welsh Government is imposing this ridiculous policy and wasting our money, what other hair-brained ideas are they coming up with?' And let's be honest, there are plenty to choose from. But the one that's really got people talking, the one that's really inundated my inbox, and I'm sure many of you as well, for all the wrong reasons, is of course Labour and Plaid's pet project of expanding the Senedd to create an extra 36 more politicians. [Interruption.] It certainly has.
Now, our NHS is in dire straits, thanks to years of Labour mismanagement, with nearly 25,000 people waiting more than two years for treatment, and we have the highest numbers of people waiting in A&E for 12 hours when compared to England and Scotland. As my colleague Tom Giffardmentioned, our education system is also failing, with the number of teachers declining in Wales. PISA results for reading, maths and science are falling to their lowest rates ever. Our economy here in Wales is struggling, having extremely poor business survival rates, which probably has something to do with the fact that Welsh Government punishes them with the highest business rates that we've seen in Great Britain. Twelve Welsh towns find themselves in a list of the top-20 most economically fragile in the UK, and 28 per cent of children in Wales are living in relative poverty. The list, sadly, really does go on. It's quite a rap sheet, and one Keir Starmer appears to want to inflict on the rest of the United Kingdom, with Wales as his blueprint for a Labour Government in Westminster.
So, what is the Welsh Government doing to tackle these really big issues? Well, as far as I'm concerned, not a great deal, as the Ministers are far too busy navel-gazing. Expanding the Welsh Parliament has been dubbed by many out-of-touch Labour politicians as a way of increasing scrutiny, but the fact is it's nothing more than a vanity project. I'm in absolutely no doubt that I and all of my colleagues here on these Conservative benches do a fantastic job of holding the Welsh Government to account, day in, day out. That is the role of opposition parties, although you may not think it, looking at Plaid, who claim to hold the Welsh Government to account whilst at the same time never missing an opportunity to jump into bed with Labour.
The people of Wales don't want to see their hard-earned money spent on putting more politicians in this place. They want to see a Welsh Government focused on delivering in the areas that matter to them, like health, education, public transport and the economy. Let me just give you a flavour of some of the messages that I've been receiving from disgruntled constituents, which show how expensive expansion plans have actually gone down. One resident, and I quote word for word,
'What is the Welsh Government expecting to achieve for the people you represent that made you decide that this was the better way to spend £120 million than, for example, on 150 new consultants to reduce the waiting lists in our NHS?'

Mike Hedges AC: Will you take an intervention? Where are you going to get those 150 extra consultants? My understanding is that there are very few unemployed doctors in Wales—actually, none—so, where are you going to get them from?

Natasha Asghar AS: Mike, where there's a will, there's a way. If you've got the money, anything's possible. [Laughter.]
Another resident said—[Interruption.] Let me carry on. Another resident said, 'It's beyond a joke that the Welsh Government claims to be skint', which I've heard the Minister mention, 'but can somehow find £120 million behind the back of a sofa to pay for this expansion. If they honestly think that this is the way Wales wants, then this is even more out of touch than I originally thought'. I'm still quoting the e-mail that was sent: 'I want to see the money spent on fixing our health service. I've got friends and family waiting obscene amounts of time to receive treatment. You seriously struggle to even get a dentist's appointment these days. Why are they wasting our money on more politicians, when there are much more pressing issues to deal with?' Honestly, I couldn't agree with them more. They are right. The Welsh Government's spending priorities are, in fact, completely wrong.
So, what I'd really like to know is how on earth the Welsh Government can really justify spending upwards of £120 million on putting more politicians in this place when the public services are truly struggling and the Government is slashing vital budgets. Quite simply, the Bill is a waste of time, money and effort, in my opinion. And I said this in June 2022: if everyone here is so confident, then, honestly, it remains my belief that it's really not too late, and it still can happen, therefore you must go to the public and actually have a referendum that's fair.

Jane Dodds AS: I would like to say it was a great privilege and honour to be a member of this committee, and I'd like to thank the Chair and all the members, and also the Bill and clerking team—thank you very much. I would like to reaffirm my party's commitment to the Bill's general principles. Reforming the Senedd and expanding its membership is vitally important if we are to be an effective legislative body, and we must provide, as we've heard, that robust scrutiny that the people of Wales deserve.
This Bill represents a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I know we hear that quite a lot, but it really is an opportunity of a generation to change our democracy and to revitalise it. But, in its current form, this Bill falls far, far short of the requirements of building the healthier, more equitable and inclusive democracy that we seek. I'm going to concentrate in particular on the proposed closed party list system, which I believe would be a profound and lasting mistake. Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru's closed party list proposal has provoked extensive criticism from Members, from the media, from experts and the wider public. Labour and Plaid Cymru argue that their reforms represent a progressive step forward—and, indeed, it is—from the first-past-the-post system. But we have an opportunity to do more, and we haven't grasped it if this Bill goes ahead as it is. We've heard in the committee from expert after expert. Professor Alan Renwick said the changes for Wales would make it an outlier and render us out of step with British and European democratic norms. Professor Laura McAllister said,
'at a time when there's such a disconnect between the politicians and the public, we're disconnecting it further.'
We heard from many experts that there are significant drawbacks of this system. Closed list systems reduce voter choice and autonomy. We need to make sure that our constituents select candidates who represent themselves or similar views. There is an opportunity, and I would plead with you to take it now. I've also, I'm afraid, not heard a single reason as to why this represents a necessary compromise to achieve the supermajority. We know that many of the supporters of these proposals previously have advocated better systems.

Alun Davies AC: Will you take an intervention?

Jane Dodds AS: Of course I will.

Alun Davies AC: When I spoke of compromise, my compromise wasn't about achieving a supermajority; it was about recognising that good comrades and friends and colleagues, both in this party and other parties, felt powerfully but differently. And it wasn't about the supermajority; it was about recognising that, with change, comes moving forward, shaking a hand, and recognising that we all need to sometimes compromise.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you for that intervention. I would say to you this: if Welsh Labour wanted a different system to the one that's been proposed, Plaid Cymru would have supported it. And there is your supermajority, in terms of the way that I understand that to be. And I'm really sorry, but I still do not understand why Welsh Labour will not support a different system from the one that's been put forward, which will then trigger Plaid Cymru—and I'm seeing nodding heads here—from supporting it. I'm yet to hear that. I really would ask the Counsel General to focus his comments on that.
I'll just finish. This is an opportunity for both Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru to rethink their support for this system. I am proud to be part of a Senedd that listens to experts. I'm proud to be part of a Senedd that takes seriously the recommendations of all of the committees. There is time still for a course correction, not just on the voting system, but other things, like job sharing, casual vacancies, review mechanisms, and to have candidates' names on the ballots. It's vital that we get this right. We have an opportunity now to reshape our democracy into something exciting and inspiring that will really get Welsh people behind an invested democracy. We should not be left in 2026 thinking about what we could have done differently. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We are out of time—way over time—on this debate, but I'm going to call two further contributions, if they promise that they'll be shorter than the contributions we've had thus far. So, Gareth Davies first.

Gareth Davies AS: Diolch, Llywydd. As a Member of the Senedd for the Vale of Clwyd, a constituency that only, by coincidence, I've lived in all my life, worked in, have links to all parts of, I regularly consult constituents, locals, friends, family and neighbours on their priorities for the area and what they expect from a Welsh Government in current devolution times. Since devolution, under the Labour Party, my constituents, in reality, have seen Glan Clwyd Hospital fall from being one of the best-performing hospitals in the UK to being under one of the worst-performing health boards in modern times; the failure to build north Denbighshire community hospital in Rhyl by the Labour Party over 10 years of broken promises; and, more recently, a default 20 mph policy being imposed on them, despite over 13,000 people in the Vale of Clwyd signing the petition against this measure—more than the amount of people who voted Labour in the Vale of Clwyd in the 2021 Senedd elections. On top of this, we have high levels of deprivation, particularly in areas of west Rhyl and upper Denbigh, which have been left behind by Labour in Cardiff since devolution and is one of the reasons why many people in Denbighshire, and more generally in central and north-east Wales, feel disenfranchised with the Senedd, and, in some cases, the very concept of devolution itself. [Interruption.]

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: No, the Member's not taking an intervention.

Gareth Davies AS: Sadly, just look at the current turnouts in Senedd elections, which have barely risen above 40 per cent since 1999.
Now, in the case of doubt, that is not my view, or I wouldn't have even bothered standing for the Senedd in the first place, and I belive that devolution can work better, with the right people in charge. But in my three years in this place, I see a Senedd that sits two days a week, and, on numerous occasions, Government business on a Tuesday often runs just three to four hours—[Interruption.]—between 1.30 p.m. and around 5 p.m. to 5.30 p.m.. And that has happened on many occasions since the conclusion of the summer recess in 2023. I don't have the exact figures on how many times that has happened, but I know, through my own experience, that this is the case. I often refer to the phrase, 'If you want to achieve something in life, such as more Senedd Members, at least make a robust case to make it a reality.' And in this period of time that I've been an MS so far, I've seen very little to no evidence of a credible justification for more MSs post 2026, other than it only being another vanity project from the Labour Party to extend the tentacles of socialism even further, and from Plaid Cymru, as they only see this as another step on the path to Welsh independence, to which I believe we are slowly sleepwalking if we carry on on this path.
But it all comes at the expense of the taxpayer—taxpayers who want a better NHS, better public services, 60 MSs who are accountable to the public, as they should be, rather than to party political managers. It's the good people of Wales yet again who have to bear the burden of the seismic uplift to the Senedd, and the reason why—. If the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru are so confident that the people of Wales want more Members of the Senedd, put it to a referendum and ask the people what they want to happen. If they do vote for it, fair enough—the people have spoken, great, let's get on with it and expand the Senedd full speed ahead. But if they reject it, let's stick to the current system, adopt the new Westminster boundary changes, extend the regional list to make up the numbers lost in the constituency section and maintain the status quo. That, colleagues, is democracy, whether you like it or not.

James Evans AS: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak today. I'd also like to thank the Counsel General for bringing forward the debate today. My views on Senedd expansion are well known and they've been rehearsed—the reasons for that—by other colleagues. But what I do want to talk about, if this is given leave to proceed today, are some of the recommendations that were put forward by the committee, especially around recommendation 16, which is around vacant seats in the Senedd. If we are going to proceed as a bigger Senedd, which I'm against, but if it does happen and the Senedd wants that to happen, I think having a vacant seat in this Senedd would be detrimental to democracy. I think that could end up with parliamentary arithmetic potentially leaving the Senedd in paralysis, with things not being able to happen. So, I would like the Counsel General to look again at recommendation 16 and see if there is something they can put in legislation to make sure there is a backstop there—that if a seat becomes available, it can be filled.
Another one of the recommendations that came forward was around the closed list system, and I agree with a lot of Members who spoke on this point that the closed list system does reduce voter choice. I would encourage the Counsel General, if this is given leave to proceed, to look at that again and see how we can actually make people more accountable to the public.
I'd also like to echo some of the comments that were made by Adam Price. Whether you agree with this or not, it has opened up a discussion here about how we can strengthen democracy in Wales and how we can improve our parliamentary processes. So, I'd like to hear from the Counsel General some ideas that he might have of how we can work with the Business Committee and cross-party to see how we can improve democracy in this place without having to increase the number of Senedd Members that are here. Diolch, Llywydd.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The Counsel General to respond.

Mick Antoniw AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I was tempted as I was making notes and listening to the contributions to try to respond to all of them. I won't because I think Members have made their points. They've made them in terms of what Members believe in. Some, I think, have a stronger grounding in fact than others, but, nevertheless, that is part of the democratic process here. So, I'm not going to reply to those in that particular way. I'm going to try and keep, I think, probably, the high moral constitutional ground in this debate, but I do have to make a couple of comments, and that is just this reflection, Darren, that it's quite likely that, after the next general election, there will be no Conservative MPs in Wales. I think we might be—[Interruption.] I think you might be very, very grateful for the fact that we have a system that will ensure that there is a Conservative voice in this Parliament, and that's what the system actually does.
These proposals are essentially about democracy and they're about the value you place on democracy, and the interpretation of what that democracy is. All I can do, I think, is repeat this: I think these changes are an investment in democracy. In investing in democracy, you have to say then, 'What price democracy?' I think 0.7 per cent of the budget, which is what this will entail, is a price that is worth paying, but I also believe it is a price, if it results, as predicted, in better governance, better scrutiny, better delivery, better democracy, that will have paid for itself.
I think some of the arguments over the cost of democracy—. If Members had stood up when ID cards proposals were coming forward, which cost £140 million, there might be a bit of credibility to those particular arguments. Those proposals really had one purpose, and that is to restrict the number of people that were voting. When we look at the criticisms made recently by the Electoral Commission of proposals that have come from the UK Government without a referendum, which it describes as basically undermining democracy—the challenges to the rule of law, the fact that with first-past-the-post you can have a government elected with a large majority on 35 per cent of the vote—I think the direction we are taking, the investment in democracy, improving our accountability to the people of Wales, improving the scrutiny that will take place of Governments, is a price I think we have to think about ourselves, and decide whether it is worth paying.

Gareth Davies AS: How do you think Government scrutiny will be enhanced and increased if the size of the Government increases with the size of the Senedd? If the size of the Government remained the same as it is now, with more Members, then that would be a credible argument to make. But if it's like for like, how do you think that's enhancing scrutiny of the Government under the new system?

Mick Antoniw AC: It isn't like for like, because the Government are the Executive and carry out functions. They need to be able to do that to the best of their capacity, which means having sufficient Government Ministers to do that. But it also means then having the sufficient capacity on the Senedd side, the Senedd Members, to enable them to understand, to develop the expertise and to actually achieve that. I do remember the last time we debated this you said there was no point in having more Senedd Members because everyone went home at 6 o'clock. Well, it's 7.30 p.m. now, so I presume you're here on overtime. But that's another matter.
This is a very serious constitutional debate. I very much respect all the contributions that have been made, all the suggestions that have been made, and I can tell you that the work will be ongoing in looking at them, in trying to reach agreement where that is possible, but at least in terms of engaging over those. It's quite an unusual step for a Government to actually say that we will place a statutory obligation on a review to ensure that what has been decided here as part of this constitutional process will be reconsidered by the next Senedd, which is where the powers lie.
I think there's one question we just have to ask, and I think it’s the one question we always ask as we go through, and when we get to Stage 2 on that, and that is this: do you agree that this is an investment in democracy? What price does that democracy have, and how important is it to you and to the people of Wales? I think we’re doing what is absolutely essential. This is a historic step for Wales, and I think it is the correct step. Diolch yn fawr.

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The proposal is to agree the motion under item 8. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore defer voting on item 8 and item 9 until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

10. Voting Time

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: I will move to the vote unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung. Nobody seems to want the bell to be rung.
The first votes are on item 7, the debate on the Welsh Language Commissioner's annual report. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, 27 against, and therefore amendment 1 is not agreed.

Item 7. Debate: Welsh Language Commissioner’s Annual Report 2022-23. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan: For: 26, Against: 27, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: We will now vote on the unamended motion in the name of Lesley Griffiths. In favour 53, no abstentions, none against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 7. Debate: Welsh Language Commissioner’s Annual Report 2022-23. Motion: For: 53, Against: 0, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: Item 8 is the next vote, the general principles of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Mick Antoniw. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, no abstentions and 14 against. The motion is therefore agreed.

Item 8.The general principles of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill : For: 39, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: The final vote is on the financial resolution. There is a further vote, and that's on the financial resolution in respect of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, again in the name of Mick Antoniw. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, that motion is also agreed.

Item 9.The financial resolution in respect of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill : For: 39, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

Y Llywydd / The Llywydd: That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 19:35.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Darren Millar: What action is the Welsh Government taking to support town centres in North Wales?

Vaughan Gething: We are providing £125 million of grant and loan funding to Welsh local authorities through our Transforming Towns programme for the period 2022-2025. Twenty-two million pounds of grant funding has been made available for the North Wales region for this period.

John Griffiths: How is the Welsh Government working to strengthen, develop and promote professional sport in Wales?

Vaughan Gething: Our programme for government commitments include supporting young and talented athletes, investing in our world-class sporting facilities, and in new facilities such as third generation pitches. The financial support the Wesh Government provides for Sport Wales is the catalyst that enables this to happen, from the grass roots to elite level.

Peter Fox: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the current state of healthcare services?

Vaughan Gething: The Minister for Health and Social Services made a statement in the Senedd last week outlining the changes in the escalation status of NHS organisations in Wales, in light of our assessment of healthcare services.As part of this process, a detailed assessment for each health organisation is undertaken.

James Evans: Will the First Minister outline what the Welsh Government has done to ensure that people get timely access to fertility treatment?

Vaughan Gething: Welsh Government is clear in our commitment to the provision of equitable and accessible fertility services. That expectation is set out in our quality statement for women and girls’ health. The Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee oversees the access criteria, including timeliness to fertility treatment.